The Gospel accounts of Jesus' life cant be validated. Can you refute that Jesus is a myth?

Question

Fact 1: Mark, Luke and Matthew either copied from each other or copied from an unknown single source. Entire passages are copied almost word for word.

Fact 2: John used either Mark, Luke and Matthew (or all) to shape his story. He avoids imporant teachings/stories found in all 3 & doesnt mention important aspects of Jesus' lif such as his miraculous birth, the Massacre of the Innocents, the Transfiguration etc

Fact 3: The authors of Mark, Luke, Matthew and John are unknown. At most their names are educated guesses that cannot be verified.

Fact 4: The first Christian writer, St Paul, does not mention Jesus' birth, life, miracles and major teachings nor does he mention or refer to any of the 4 gospels.

Fact 5: None of the other epistles in the New Testament mention or refer to the 4 gospels.

Fact 6: No contemporary historian mentions Jesus & all other historical documents only refer to the traditions and beliefs of Christians not an historic Jesus Christ.

Answer 1

You make good points, all mostly true. I hope you have been reading various things and just didn't hear these all from some Christian-basher. Yes they are true but . . .



I'm not a Christian so I am not going to give you an answer based on doctrine or even my own belief.



The fact is, there is a separation between Jesus and his life and his teachings (if he even existed) and the things that were said about him and taught about him and taught in his name after he was gone. You have to see them as two different things. And you have to argue against them with two different arguments.



Yes, Paul doesn't mention the Gospels in his epistles. You probably know why. Because Paul's epistles predate the gospels chronologically--the gospels hadn't been written yet!



No, there is no contemporary historical evidence of Jesus' existence. But this is true for the great majority of people who lived then. The only individual people we really know about are Roman Emperors and a few other powerful politicians.



But to me (Non-Christian, remember) what's important is Jesus's teachings. They are self-evident. They are good teachings! You could do worse than to believe in them and live by them. (Sometimes I wish more Christians would learn about them!)



Maybe Jesus was really a 'composite' character, there had to be several ascetic Jewish loners who traveled around and did magic tricks and taught about the brotherhood of man. Maybe he was just made up. To me, it doesn't even really matter. To a Christian it would matter, but that's just -them-. 8^)



Jesus would often tell a story to answer a question. A 'parable'. Were these stories true? I have had Christians tell me they must be true. They were in the Bible, weren't they? They have to be literally true.



But think about it, the purpose of the story is to make a point. For it to do that, it's not necessary for the story to be true. Jesus could have made them up, they'd be just as good for their purpose, don't you think? The story of the Boy who Cried Wolf was told to children for centuries to teach them why you shouldn't make false alarms. Did it ever really happen? I would guess not, I would guess it was made up. It's still a good story, though, and it illustrates the point.



That's how I see the life of Jesus. Whether Jesus is a 'legend' based on truth, a composite, or never existed at all, his following became legion, and his cult became the official religion of the Roman Empire and later of all of Europe. His story and teachings have become one of the bases of Western Culture. They are significant even if he is a fictional character like Robin Hood or Sherlock Holmes.

Answer 2

Fact 1: Mark, Luke and Matthew either copied from each other or copied from an unknown single source.



In other historical accounts that would be called "corroboration" and "accuracy" and "using references"



Fact 2: John used either Mark, Luke and Matthew (or all) to shape his story. He avoids imporant teachings/stories found in all 3 & doesnt mention important aspects of Jesus' lif such as his miraculous birth, the Massacre of the Innocents, the Transfiguration etc



That's because those accounts were already out there, he added more information from his personal witness.



In your first fact you discount the gospel historians who did mention each other's work, in fact two you discount the gospel historian who didn't use the other people's work... so what exactly WOULD you be satisfied with?



Fact 4: The first Christian writer, St Paul, does not mention Jesus' birth, life, miracles and major teachings nor does he mention or refer to any of the 4 gospels.



Wait - according to fact 1 referring to the 4 gospels is enough to throw out the book? St. Paul was not a follower of Jesus until Jesus had already ascended in to heaven so he did not personally witness Jesus's birth, life, or miracles. So that makes sense, doesn't it?



Fact 5: None of the other epistles in the New Testament mention or refer to the 4 gospels.



Again - see your objection to fact one... however this isn't true, the epistles do make reference to Jesus's teachings, life, and work.



Fact 6: No contemporary historian mentions Jesus & all other historical documents only refer to the traditions and beliefs of Christians not an historic Jesus Christ.



You mean aside from the gospel writers? Ok, aside from people who personally knew him, please show me a contemporary historian of Julius Caesar that mentions him (and make sure you have a manuscript dated to within a generation of his lifetime) - once you see how hard to do that is, why don't you find me a contemporary historian who mentions a commoner?

Answer 3

You said it best, Jesus is not the only one whom has made an impact of the world, and people in it.. He is however, the only that has been crucified by people whom were His own.. For a crime that He did not commit. A death that he fortold before it happened, and which the word of God fortold long before the arrival of Christ. Details about the life of Jesus as a youth, and before His ministry are sketchy.. I give you that. However, the details of His ministry, as presented by followers and believers, who suffered terrifically for the report of it, was no lying matter. It is the same today, each of us, when around a particular individual remember things more specifically than others might.. However another might see something to place more emphasis on than I do, and yet I report what I see and understand, the renditions from the 2 points of view, of the same thing viewed can be very different. Why?, the perspective of the viewer, the heart of the viewer, what impacted the viewer the most.. This is why the gospels in many accounts are similar, and why in other accounts things are not mentioned from one to the next. Try this theory at your next family gathering.. talk about what each remembers from even 10 years back of the same person, and all of them will have different stories to tell. Are they all true? if they are honest Yes!, will there be different stories by different people? Most definitely Yes.. Here is what I want you to take away with you.. The most important aspect of the gospel,which is this: Jesus said He would die, ( the temple would be destroyed) and in 3 days ( in 3 days time) it would be rebuilt. ( resurrected) Jesus knew what would happen to Him.. It was this claim that got Him in trouble with the ruling body of Jews anyway.. It was that claim and that His Father (God) was His Father. It was these claims that the ruling body hated Jesus for and why they wanted to kill Him.. They generated liars to give false testimony of Christ . ( Jesus knew they would do this) They sent him before rulers ( Jesus knew they would do this), the rulers beat Him, ( Jesus knew they would do this) , ultimately the Leaders lead a frenzied state that got another free, while Jesus was to be crucified. The Roman Govn't acknowledge Him as king of the Jews.. The sanhiedren wanted to make sure that the testimony of Jesus was at an end, so they had pilot dispatch centurions to gaurd the tomb.. The last thing the leadership wanted was for any claim to be made that Jesus was risen, like He said He would.. They took every precaution to make sure this would not happen.. The deciples were running in fear, the only ones left around, where the 2 Marys, and John the beloved deciple. The truth of the resurrection is the truth, becuase if there had been a dead body, ( the sanhedrin would have produced it, the roman soldiers would have shown it all throughout the land to squell any rebellion. Halleluah, there was a body,, a living body.. a resurrected body. This body appearing to over 500 wittnesses, including the deciples. The deciples all, save 1, died miserable , terrible deaths . They spoke about and wrote about the truth of what they saw, and were emboldened to do it, ( knowing the truth) and also knowing that they were doing it, at the chance of thier own demise. Now tell me? What idiot in all the world would go through such pain and agony, if they did not know for sure, the truth of what they were saying? Who in thier right mind would ever go through those tortures over a fabricated story, or a lie?

Answer 4

1) Because all 3 experienced the same thing, and were of similar backgrounds . . . how hard can it be to write the same thing from 3 different view points, if you all see the same thing happen



2) I believe John was the doctor type at the time, he's record would be different, because of he's educated view point. I think that if 3 people before you iterate a point of miraculous birth, you needn't be a copy cat.



3) The names are the authors. They composed the book to which there name is given. The title of the book was given, once they were written, and the people of the time knew it was this individual that composed them.



4) You are taking a humans word for something. Anything he writes is not God inspired, so how should we know if it is fact or fiction



5) Because they are an account of events that transpired. What would be the point in referencing them, when they can simply reference the person they were written about, as people of the time would still recall the events of Jesus' life



6) Provide to me a list of EVERY "contemporary" historian, and ALL books they have every written, so we can verify this. If historians 100 years in the future, fail to mention you in their history books, does that mean you failed to exist also??

Answer 5

None of your facts are correct.



1) Mark, Luke, and Matthew shared the same experience with Jesus. Naturally they would have similar stories.



2) John was not witness to the crucifixion. His witness is only of the resurrection.



3) Mark, Luke, Matthew, and John are know to be the apostles of Jesus and identify themselves as such. Where every you got that fact is totally wrong.



4) Paul was a letter writer but does mention Jesus. He is writing to encourage others, not document history.



5) The gospels were not named as such at the time. This 'fact' is a non-starter.



6) Josephus, a roman historian, mentions Jesus and the development of christianity at length.



In short, your 'facts' are simply false.

Answer 6

I am wondering about your so called facts and whether you have made them up or not. I also wonder if you have considered the historical evidence for the death and resurrection of Christ on which Christianity hangs. Can I recommend you do an objective study on this. Most people think they understand and know things from what other people say not realising that those people have their biases for what they say. Have you also considered how Christianity spread, how Jesus disciples died and chose to die many of them were crucified. Have you also considered that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts. The evidence for all these things are very great if you are willing to look for them. There is also evidence outside the bible from Jewish historians who acknowledged that there were many followers of Christ after his death and resurrection.

Answer 7

Where does one even begin to refute you. Oh, well.

In Julius Africanus' History of the World, a document that mentions one Thallus who talks about the darkness that covered the land at Jesus crucifixion.

Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews mentions Jesus twice.

There are also accounts of Suetonius, Tacitus, and letters of Pliny the Younger.

The Gospel accounts are four eyewitness views of Jesus' life. Of the four, two are accounts from his apostles Matthew and John. Luke, a Greek doctor who accompanied the apostle Paul, went to various people who were witnesses to the events of Jesus' life and documented them. Luke intended to get as much history of Jesus and his life as possible from surviving witnesses. Mark is said to be writing the accounts of Jesus life from the witness of the apostle Peter.

You also have the various records of the Roman Empire about the Christians they persecuted. All in all, Jesus lives. I suggest you do some serious study before jumping to conclusions.

Answer 8

Did you know that the earliest documentations for people like Alexander the Great have a bigger time gap then that of the new testament writings? Did you know that you couldnt prove Shakespeare to me? Did you know that the gospels dont mention Job, Judges or any other book? But does that make the other books invalid?



By the way, many people, even historians believe in Christ the Man. His divinity is another issue but many people do in fact agree that he existed

Answer 9

Luke and Matthew are more copied from Mark than from Q.



The gospel of Thomas precedes the writings of Paul by a few years - it was probably written about CE46 and Paul's letters date to CE 46 - 57.



Otherwise good points all.





Will fall on deaf ears if you choose to believe that the bible is divinely inspired though.



Retroact - none of the Gospel writers were eyewitnesses. This is a universally accepted fact among biblical scholars. The Josephus reference to Jesus is widely believed to have been added to his text centuries later.

Answer 10

Christ was written about by other than just the apostles. There were Greek historians and a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus. How can one doubt the writings of the apostles as truth? Christ came and fulfilled over 100 of the prophecies of the old testament which were written over 800 years prior to His coming. He is the true Son of God, He is God.

Answer 11

You seem to have confused the word fact with the word opinion, a common mistake to be sure. None of your "facts" are anything of the sort. You have seen this information presented as fact and accepted it. That is your choice, just as it is a Christians choice to reject your facts and accept the gospel as truth.



For future reference, a fact is something that can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, supported by evidence.

Answer 12

Well, first off I encourage you to check your facts because I think the person who wrote them was on crack and highly ignorant of countless pieces of information which speak otherwise.



Secondly, no, I can't convince you that Jesus isn't a myth. The bible says, "The Word of the cross is foolishness to those who are passing away." Jesus is real, but if you've hardened your heart against Him, you'll never experience that or come to that realization.



Jesus came to save the world, not to prove himself through academic textbooks.

Answer 13

#1--Be careful, Mark came first, and Q possibly contemporaneously, and then Luke and Matthew followed.

#2--Well, John's just special.

#4--Well, they were still being written! You can't say "in Luke it says blah blah blah" to support you, because Luke wasn't written yet! He would naturally cite what he had heard, not what he had read.

#6--Don't discredit Josephus.



I agree, but I'm not as confrontational.

Answer 14

The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look at what some of these people have said.

Cornelius Tacitus



Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata



Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius



Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger



Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon



Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion



Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus



Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!

Answer 15

Hey, listen religion, all here and there arenot going to be agreed with by everybody. No, they cannot PROVE that Jesus or any other god for that matter exists, but they have faith in that god and you can't really tell them otherwise, becase you know, you don't have any proof that he ISN'T real either!



If you want to ask questions like this, go to different churches and see which one has the explination that your ok with, or become a philosipher like Socrates! (YEAH, LOOK HOW GREAT HIS LIFE TURNED OUT TO BE!) sorry for the caps.

Answer 16

Jesus isn't a myth. Jesus existed. There are many historical documents that refer in part to his existence (including the bible).



What is a myth is that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus was born as man, lived as man, died as man.

Answer 17

No. The only other semi-contemporary account of Jesus is in a thing by Josephus, and it is probably a forgery.

Postscript: I must comment on the preceding response. It is completely erroneous. The authors of the gospels that he cites were NOT the apostles in question; all of them were written long after Jesus' death.

Answer 18

RHSaunders is absolutely right, the ONLY historical reference is the Josephus forgery. Quite plainly the man did not exist.

Answer 19

Moderswn hsitoriean want to look at things as a historical not a religous perspective doesnt mean they didnt havppme

Answer 20

You'll find that you run across the same dilemma in trying to prove the existence of Plato.



The epistles of the New Testatment were by and large written before the Gospels, so there is no reason for them to have been mentioned.



But Jesus is known to have existed, and his existence has been handed down word of mouth since the beginning.





.

Answer 21

I can no more prove that jesus is real then you can PROVE that Jesus is not. It is all speculation and theory, but my speculation happens to be referred to as faith.



I take a fideist response when it comes to questions like these. We cannot prove either way, and religious beliefs cannot be tested or studied in the same way as other pursuits; therefore, the two should be left apart. My experiences and my faith prove to me (!) that Jesus is real and is my savior. I don't need to justify it, and I don't want to.

Answer 22

Fact 7: Yours facts are wrong.



Fact 8: Jesus has changed my life and millions of others. We testify that God has raised Jesus from the dead and that He is alive and well and living in the hearts of millions of people with signs, wonders, and miracles following them!



Fact 9. The Apostles would not die for a lie.

Answer 23

A myth in what sense?



If one believes something purely through faith there really is no way to argue with this person.



If you are referring to the historical Jesus, then yes, Jesus probably existed.

Answer 24

Hmmm.... weird. Even atheists acknowledge Jesus is real. They just don't believe that He's the Son of God. If there weren't sufficient evidence for them to believe in even Jesus's existence, they wouldn't. They would do anything to claim He was made up by the authors of the Bible. Like you.

Answer 25

Fact 7: The 'Jesus story' is far too similar to other stories. Many other deities have been born of a virgin on December 25, had a group of close followers, had a Eucharistic meal, were crucified, and resurrected.



Personally, I believe "Jesus" existed as a historical figure, but in the decades long gap between his life and the first writings, the accounts of his life were overblown.

Answer 26

very true...and very plausable that Jesus was any one of the Jesus' practicing miracles and healings in the area at the time. Matthew and Luke both copied from the quelle (Q) source according to most biblical scholars.

Answer 27

Can you prove to me that YOU are not a myth?

By the same token, other mythical beings include

Plato

Socrates

Alexander the Great

Well, almost anybody whose existance is simply mentioned in ancient writings.

Answer 28

fact 7) Histrocial accounts do infact verify his birth.



Such as roman legal documents, Jewish manuscripts, and the sheer fact that A man who didnt exist would have a hell of a time gathering so much support and such a large following.



Jesus was infact a man. Wheather he is all the gospels say he is, thats another question. however exist he did.



Very good presentation and delivery though.

Answer 29

Except you are wrong. Historians also used to say that Pilate wasn't real, then a few years ago they found his house and a column he put up.

Answer 30

To you? No I can't. No person can convince another that Jesus is real. That takes desire on the part of the seeker, to know that He is.

Answer 31

will you have more evidence of your existance 2000 years from now?

Answer 32

Easy.. He was a guy who was good with people.. if he was real at all.. there is defiantly no supernatural beings though.

Answer 33

Your grandfather 20 generations ago can not be validated. Can you refute that he did not exist? Just because you are here is no validation. Prove, from historical accounts that he existed.

Answer 34

Aw, you just copied this!



Seriously, without credible references this is just blathering.

Answer 35

The Bible is the ultimate authority on Jesus's life. Period.

Answer 36

I find it hard to fathom, that someone who has billions of followers today, never existed.

Answer 37

Tell you what....stop breathing for 10 minutes...and it will al become crystal clear to you.

Answer 38

"Facts," my rear--that's nothing but a load of BS.

Answer 39

You're absolutely right.

Answer 40

All religion is myth and philosophy all mixed together