Question:
If God knows everything we will do ahead of time, Do we really still have choices?
† John M †
2010-04-19 17:55:24 UTC
I thought I knew the answer to this question, but now I am questioning what I thought I knew because of questions I have been asked.

I would be interested in hearing your understanding on this topic, and Thank you for your valuable time. It is well appreciated.
Thirteen answers:
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2010-04-19 20:17:20 UTC
Yes it all comes under the heading of God's perfect provision that He made for us all. He left nothing to chance. He has provided for us no matter what choice we make. It is similar to your parents who keep you close to them when you are little and look out for you. They know that you will make mistakes but they do not hinder your development by hovering they have a safety net to catch you and that is all the Lord has done. He does not pressure you to go this way or that, but has put within your reach those things that will aid you if you need them.

What a wonderful sensitive Father we have in heaven watching over us who belong to Him because of what Jesus did for us on the cross at Calvary.

Hallelujah!
Mid & Jann
2010-04-19 18:27:22 UTC
I understand our relationship with God, in terms of choice as this: God gives us choices. He does not force us. He allows us to make the wrong decisions, even though it will cause us and others harm. Apart from this basic biblical logic (as I see it) we are left adrift when attempting to understand why God "allows" horrible things to happen -- anything from warfare, disease, torture, rape, molestation, etc. He could stop all evil -- but he does not -- because he allows all humans choice. He could intervene -- and while we are more aware of the times when he doesn't -- there are many times when he does intervene, to confound what might have been -- and in such a case we could say that he didn't allow the full consequences of human choice to be played out. I believe he does act in such ways, and I believe that the vast majority of the time, when he does, we simply have no idea that he did.



What does God foreknow? This issue has a number of permutations. The biblical terms upon which various systematic theologies are brought to bear (perhaps better stated -- through which biblical terms and passages are filtered) are terms like foreknowledge, predestine, election. What is called five-point Calvinism (based on the doctrinal acronym T-U-L-I-P, which stands for Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints) is the idea that God predestines everyone who has ever lived, or ever will live, to be either "saved" or "lost" -- it's all predetermined.



On the other hand, the Bible clearly shows that human beings, left to themselves, will always choose against God (somewhat like a sullen, alienated teen!) -- see Romans 8:7. So what kind of a choice is that, one might ask? When we carefully examine the gospel, we might conclude that only those whom God draws, only those whose spiritual blindness he heals, only those to whom he reveals himself, really have a "choice" as some might define choice -- and God must first soften the heart of an otherwise God-rejecting human nature for us to have that real choice.



What does God foreknow? Ultimately, we can say that God foreknows himself. God foreknew Jesus from the foundation of the world, he foreknew his plan, he foreknew how all things would work out (in general) -- he foreknew the corruption and sin which humans would bring to the earth -- after all, he created us! What does God not foreknow? I believe that he has chosen not to know specific actions that we, his created children, will take. I believe he has chosen, as a part of who and what he is, not to see in advance all of our specific actions and behaviors. He has chosen to give us the power of choice. Again, one might say, well, doesn't he have a good idea of what we will do? Isn't it like, to go back to the example of parenting, a parent putting a pre-school age child in a room filled with candy and chocolate, and then leaving the room, watching through the window? God has created us. He knows our frame. He knows our nature. He knows our limitations. He is not surprised or shocked by what we do.



May God shine His light & wisdom upon you.
anonymous
2010-04-19 18:41:58 UTC
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why? Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).



http://www.carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will
L. E. Gant
2010-04-19 18:01:40 UTC
God might know ahead of time, but YOU don't. So, YOU still have to make a choice, based on what YOU know and YOU feel is right. Even if there is such a thing as fate or destiny, YOU have the responsibility to make the choice that leads to the end.
?
2010-04-20 02:01:10 UTC
Its amazing how alot of you have different ideas on what your god thinks and knows.



If you care to critically observe it closely, i'm sure you'll all acknowledge to an extent deep down in your heart that an obvious contradiction exists between freedom and an all knowing powerful entity who sets people's fate before hand.



What any christian proposes is that god knows ahead of time as to what you will do and be....let me emphasize ahead of time, that is, he knows your future, your impending fate, since the proposition they made of a god, as an all knowing deity who had already decided everyone's fate. You are therefore pre-judged before you were even born, the point that also implies every baby being born every second as you read this has already been given that sentencing, pre-birth. Some doomed to fail, hell has a spot with their name on it, to put it crudely.



How is it that freedom even has a room in it in your world of belief with that concept? The god you preach knows everything. Everything you do in your time, be it while you're thinking, sleeping or in the toilet...while you're making love to your wife. Can that much intrusion and invasion of one's privacy be even considered freedom? Sounds alot like "big brother in the sky is watching", a form of dictatorship, worrying and scary a thought if you ask anyone else who isn't a christian, but no no no...for the god you propose has a special privilege you have assigned into your life and wish it on everyone else.



How is it freedom when you're all "forced" in one way or another to believe that you must worship and love god for if you don't, a hell and unfavourable judgement awaits. I can imagine the fear within innocent minds of kids to accept this concept of "love"..... the "you must love me or else.." threat sure does strike fear in any 5 year old.



Suppose you say you still have freedom to choose in the hope that your impending fate might take a turn for the better.... say from a pre-judged murderer of the future as determined by god to a well-loved and respected teacher. By that as an example, that may just imply that you are greater than the god you worship. You know something that god doesn't because you're able to tilt the tables of your predetermined fate by god. I say this, because in this scenario....god got it wrong about you the first time.



I guess there are tons of ways you all might want to twist, turn and spin it all for god to your favour. Based on the example i gave in the last paragraph, you could say that god always knew you were going to change or that god made it in such a way that you will want to change. There are tons more ways to spin a good reason to make a good case for your all-knowing god belief and how good he is.



In any case, religious leaders do know how to put a good spin to a "failing" story to make all work out though the use of passages in a holy book. They're not the only ones doing it anyway, lawyers have been at spinning it in their own trade for a long time too.



Instead of having religious leaders telling you how it is from their "revelations through god". Why not apply some critical thinking and arguments on your own.... try asking people of all backgrounds and then analyse it all critically with good reason, coming up with your own conclusion and not just simply accept what you want or wish or coerced to hear.



Try that for a change.



P/S: Can you guys reply without quote minning anything from the bible and just chucking it in here. I'm sure you're all more than capable to hold your opinion than just cutting and pasting...
The Goat Nose
2010-04-19 18:06:51 UTC
It's a difficult idea to conceptualize.

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God.



Here is the link that explains it further:

http://www.carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will
2 Shepherds
2010-04-19 18:02:54 UTC
Hi John. God does not know what we will do ahead of time. He can make wonderfully accurate guesses due to past behavior, but the actions that we do are our own. That's what freedom of choice or free moral agency is all about. God doesn't make us change our behavior, but He does make us choose what we do. When you think about it, Adam and Eve had a choice, too. They could listen to satan and doubt God (which they did) or they could trust the One who had a relationship with them since they were created. God did not know what their choice would be, but neither was He surprised.



So, to sum it up, yes, we do have choices. God hopes we make the right ones and choose Him.
anonymous
2010-04-19 17:56:48 UTC
I believe that just because God knows what we will choose does not mean that he caused us to choose it. We still have free choice, but God is outside of time, so he sees all of time at once...
exodust20
2010-04-19 18:04:13 UTC
Yes we do,Just because God knows how everything will turn out and lets us do what ever we desire is no reason to suggest otherwise.
Bob
2010-04-19 17:59:43 UTC
God knows all -- presuming you continue to follow Him. You have the choice to turn away, or not.
Karl P
2010-04-19 17:56:44 UTC
Absolutely. To 'come clean' with your'self' in the first place, dude. ;)
Terry Z
2010-04-19 18:20:47 UTC
Just be cause he knows, does not mean he stirs the pot.
anonymous
2010-04-19 18:12:02 UTC
No, we don't. All those who say otherwise are fools.


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