Schneb has a paper that says the Messiah's crucifixion was prophesied 700 years before it was invented...?

Question

...would someone please explain to me what to make of that?

http://www.schneblin.com/studies/pdfs/proof_of_god.pdf

Answer 1

The Phoenicians introduced crucifixion to Rome in the 3rd century BC. Psalm 22 was written by King David 1,000 years before Christ. During the time of David, the method of execution was stoning.



In 1968, building contractors working in a suburb north of Jerusalem accidentally uncovered a Jewish tomb dated to the first century after the death of Christ. Lying in a Jewish ossuary were the skeletal remains of a man in his twenties who had been crucified. The evidence for this was based on the right calcaneum (heel bone) of the individual, pierced by an iron nail 11.5 cms. in length.



See photo of bone (as well as a recreation of the entire foot skeleton for illustration) here...

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crossheel.jpg



"An experiment that was the subject of a documentary on the National Geographic Channel's Quest For Truth: The Crucifixion showed that a person can be suspended by the wrists. Nailing the feet to the side of the cross relieves strain on the wrists by placing most of the weight on the lower body...Since in Roman times iron was expensive, the nails were removed from the dead body to cut the costs, which would help to explain why only one has been found, as the back of the nail was bent in such a way that it couldn't be removed." - Wikipedia



"Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrists as part of the hand." - Dr. C. Truman Davis



Remember also the testimony of Thomas when he said...



“Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”



What did Jesus show the disciples to make them believe? Rope burns?



Luke 24:40

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.



As Paul also testified in that day...



Colossians 2:14

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.



The "so-called experts" can say what they want in hindsight. The archaeological evidence, as well as the testimony of those that lived in that day, confirmed that nails were indeed employed in crucifixion... at least in Judea.

_________________________________



Thanks Grey Tower - He did.

Answer 2

>> Why do the Jews ignore Daniel 9:23-27? How could they >> miss the time of the Messiah's prophesied arrival?         Don really does have the correct idea -- for Yahushuah fulfilled over 300 prophecies for His Coming. The only thing He didn't fulfill was the expectation the hierarchy of the Jews had for Him. Man can truly be very stubborn. If they don't get exactly what they want, then they refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary. Even then, when they are looking at the Truth, they will pick and choose which of those Truths they will accept.         Christians, in general, are exactly the same way. Way too much of the modern Christian religion is not based on the Bible at all -- just as the Jews expectations of the Messiah are not based upon all of the Bible Truths on the subject. The Jews rejected the part about how the Messiah would suffer and die. They only wanted to accept the part about Him being a victorious conqueror (at His Second and Third Comings). Likewise, for example, Christians only want to accept the part about Grace and ignore the part about Works and developing a sinless life, through Christ, *before* He Comes again. God bless.

Answer 3

You have the evidence re the prophesies about the Messiah would be put to death. When you say nails were not used by the Romans in crucifixion, I am afraid you have been misinformed.



Recently the body of a person who had been crucified was found in a tomb and, along with the bones, were rusty nails. The reason nails are seldom discovered is because they were considered to be precious and were often stolen after the bodies were taken down. I'm going to look up the document where I found this information and quote the source.



Oh, great paper by the way! I'm so glad you posted this. But why don't you just email Schneb and ask him yourself?



Edit: Glad to see Schneb has provided the evidence for nails being used. Oh, I sincerely hope you're going to give him BA now!!!

Answer 4

The Psalm merely refers to the piercing of hands and feet. No cross is mentioned. The general understanding of historians is that the condemned were tied to their crosses, not nailed. And those who might have been nailed couldn't practically be nailed through the hands. The weight of the body would tear the nails through the flesh between the fingers. They would have to be nailed above or through the wrist. This does not match the "prophecy". And since this was only a detail of crucifixion, one might expect mention of wood or a "tree" or being hoisted into the air. There are such verses, in a completely different part of the Hebrew scriptures.



Effectively, the Christian messianic "prophecies" are a patchwork of unrelated verses drawn from the sad parts of the Bible. The "Suffering Servant" passages in Isaiah provide a marvelous depiction of someone being involuntarily sacrificed, but its original intention was to depict the state of the nation of Israel in exile. Christians will argue that the first prophecy "foreshadowed" the second, but Jews will disagree with the whole concept of recycled prophecies.



There is also the problem of self-fulfillment. In exploring the scriptures for "prophecies", the evangelists likely would have noted particular physical details which could be included in the Passion story to "fulfill" the "prophecies". What is the salvific significance of soldiers gambling for Jesus' clothes? Or his cry of despair on the cross, for that matter? None. But if they appear in both a psalm and a gospel, it's "prophecy", right?



Turning again to the cited verses, I note there is a prominent mention of dogs. Where are the dogs in the Passion narrative? Or are we to interpret that particular image metaphorically?

Answer 5

matthew 27:35 uses psalm 22:18 in respect of the gambling for Jesus' clothes when he is crucified. psalm 22 is a lament of total despair, beginning with a cry that god has forsaken the writer who then reflects on god's dealings with Israel (22:3- 5), and himself (22:9-10). He continues by saying that his enemies rejoice over his despair and how he is suffering (22:6-8,11-18), and calls upon god for help (22:19-21). The writer promises to give public testimony and says that all will worship god (22:22-31).

The text used in matt is when the author of psalm 22 describes his feeling of being attacked and his attackers count him as one already dead by taking his clothing and dividing this up by casting lots (22:12- 21).

In sum, as psalm 22 describes a situation of despair the gospel writers, whoever they were, considered it appropriate when describing jesus' supposed crucifixion but there is nothing messianic or prophetic in it and the events described have no relationship with those described by the gospel writers. what's more the original hebrew word "ariy", translated as "pierced", is more accurately translated as "lion". with this in mind the line (22:16) reads properly as, "like a lion [they are gnawing at] my hands and feet." this is reinforced by the fact that, in the NIV, 23:13 is translated as, "Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me", and indeed, on biblegateway.com this footnote appears with regard to v16, "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts / like the lion"

so you can clearly see that psalm 22 has nothing to do with prophecy and the only reason why anyone would ever have seen it as such is because the writer of matt cites it as such. not very compelling if all it takes for any bible verse to become prophecy is for a gospel writer to simply wish it to be.



do the research people. the light will be bright at first but i promise your eyes will adjust.



what're you so scared of?

Answer 6

Crucifixion was a concurrent practice to the writing of the Bible.

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm

Answer 7

Psalm 22 describes brutal injuries, not the process of crucifixion. These are usually interpreted to mean the crucifixion.

Answer 8

Yes, it has been Prophesied numerous times in the Old Testament, including in the Book of Wisdom(which Protestants edited from their Bibles).

Answer 9

Psalm 22 does foretell the crucifixion: Psalm 22:16b "the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet"

Answer 10

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.