Question:
Jesus never existed? Who says?
The Former Dr. Bob
2010-03-11 13:46:00 UTC
One Yahoo! Answers user in particular is all but spamming questions with the ridiculous claim that Jesus never existed.

Such a position is without any historical or scholarly merit. Even scholars who reject Jesus' claims of divinity -- like the well-known Elaine Pagels and the oft-seen James Tabor -- recognize that Jesus was a real historical figure with a unique ministry and a large following. Not even the most liberal scholars arrive at such a radical position.

What leads someone to ignore the extensive evidence, declare that the historians and scholars are wrong, and make such spurious claims? Is it simply willful ignorance? Is it wishful thinking? Or is it something more?
24 answers:
2010-03-11 14:00:23 UTC
guys... he says..."Even scholars who reject Jesus' claims of divinity -- like the well-known Elaine Pagels and the oft-seen James Tabor -- recognize that Jesus was a real historical figure with a unique ministry and a large following"

His whole point is that whether u believe Jesus was the son of God or not, there is no real big reason to deny that a man named jesus who had a large following existed. What? just because we can't find his grave means he didn't exist? tons of Egyptian Pharaohs whose graves we haven't found,we believe to be historical figures and we believe they existed because of pictures and hyroglyphs. There is text other than the bible that talks about jesus....



The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).



Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”



Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).



The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.



Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.



It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.



There is an extensive amount of info regarding a man named Jesus who had a great many followers in the far corner of the Roman Empire. do deny this is completely ignorant. Of course, all those people could be liers right? dont think so. Whether or not he was the divine son of God is a whole other discussion.



yall can give me a thumbs-down as much as ya like, if that helps you feel better
Bruce
2010-03-11 14:20:51 UTC
Who says Jesus never existed? Well, not the non-Christian historians Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Mara bar Sarapion, among others (see Wikipedia link).



In addition, the Christian scriptures are the earliest and best preserved records of any in the ancient world. The four biographies we have in the gospels meet very strong tests of historical documentation, e.g., inclusion of embarrassing details, multiple perspectives that rule out collusion.



I agree with you that the historical record is so strong that those who deny the historicity of Jesus cannot be taken seriously as anything but spammers. It is akin to denying the Holocaust or the moon landings. But from the answers here, it looks like the denial faction is well represented in R&S.



As to why people deny history, I could only speculate, but it is likely related to the motives of Jesus' contemporaries who were obsessed with removing him by fair means or foul, and ultimately foul.



Cheers,

Bruce
2016-10-04 18:13:33 UTC
it particularly is humorous. Archeology is greater obtrusive in Christ and the Bible. Evolution won't be able to say the comparable. Fossils may be used against their case. Macro is probable the biggest fable ever theorized. a guy has the ability to invent something, collectively as an ape won't be able to. His strategies is greater loose to issues of this earth, collectively as the ape is limited. a guy can learn. An ape has to income. Hell, we instruct sign language to monkeys. Why won't be able to they try this on their very own? And to easily SEE the info of Biblical cases, merely visit A MUSEUM. How do you clarify the Rosetta stone? Or Hammurabi (Who substitute into around the comparable time as Abraham) code of rules? How do you clarify the places? Evolution has no such element. No sort of community or maybe housing. Why is it that when you consider the two, Christ sticks out like a sore thumb?
2010-03-11 13:58:55 UTC
I would imagine it is the same or similar reason why some Christians claim that archeology substantiates the stories of the Bible when, in fact, it contradicts the Bible. Some people seem to ignore the facts.



PROFESSOR WILLIAM DEVER: “No, most archeologists and most biblical scholars would agree today that the biblical story of a pan military conquest of Canaan is not very realistic.



In that sense we've undermined, perhaps, the book of Joshua.



On the other hand, archaeology has brilliantly illuminated the more complex story and the account in Judges and we now know that early Israel emerged not overnight as a result of military victories, but in a long cultural struggle and the Bible correctly remembers that in parts of its literature.



So I would rather stress the positive side.



If we don't think many of the ancestors of Israel had ever been in Egypt, perhaps some of them had and told the story as though it were the story of all Israel.



But I think most of us would agree that most of the 'proto-Israelites', as I call them, had had indigenous origins in Canaan and that explains much of the polemics against the Canaanites in the Hebrew Bible, because the Israelites had come from that source themselves.”
Kevin7
2015-12-08 11:14:05 UTC
Yes,Jesus Christ existed based on historical evidence
2010-03-11 14:02:16 UTC
I don't make that claim -- but it's not in any way supported by evidence, so there's no reason to believe an actual jesus *did* exist.



"Such a position is without any historical or scholarly merit..."

That's patently false.

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/A_Silence_That_Screams

http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm



It's only been in the past 50 years or so that people were allowed to seriously consider the idea that an historical jesus wasn't real -- for a very long time before that, anyone who dared to suggest so wound up imprisoned, tortured, or executed. However, even many christian apologist web sites (such as http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm) admit that the idea has been around "for centuries."

Here is more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth



Simply put, an historical jesus has been accepted by default for many centuries without any serious inquiry into the question. Now the question is being critically examined, and what has been accepted without inquiry for centuries is being shown to be not worth accepting on a scholarly or historical basis.



Personally, I don't know if there was an historical jesus or not. It seems most likely to me that the jesus stories in the bible are composite stories consisting of some actual experiences of some real people (more than one), some mild exaggerations, and much outright mythical invention.

In any case, there is in no way sufficient evidence to claim absolutely that there WAS an historical jesus...



Here, read this, it should pique your interest:



http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm



Peace.



edit for admiral ackbar: I don't suppose you noticed that *not a single one* of the sources you quoted were alive during the time of the supposed jesus, and so not one of them is a primary source?
thundercatt9
2010-03-11 13:58:41 UTC
People who say Jesus never existed are the atheists version of the young earth creationists. lol Interestingly enough, no one ever seems to have denied the historicity of Jesus until around the 18th or 19th centuries.



At the time of history when they were first written, the event in question, the death of a man named Jesus of Nazareth, had happened less than one hundred years ago. That's rather like us discussing the death of, say, Queen Victoria of England, or Abraham Lincoln. We KNOW these people existed, so when we discuss them, we simply presume that fact. It was the same way with the ancient Romans and Jews when they discussed Jesus. They didn't doubt his existence, only his divinity and maybe sometimes his sanity.
2010-03-11 14:02:15 UTC
"unique ministry and large following"? What? says who? Pat Robertson?



The Romans had no documentation of killing him in the 250,000 Jews they executed. None of his contemporaries ever mentioned him. Most of what was written about him was centuries after his death, as was the plagiarism from other religions used to sew Christianity together to make it all appear magical.



And you wonder why right wing extremists aren't taken seriously anymore. You take one fact, that a carpenter may have existed, and use this as a pedestal for your "turn or burn" argument? And so much that you have deliberately left out! Is it simply willful ignorance? Is it wishful thinking? Or is it something more?
Corey
2010-03-11 14:01:26 UTC
I am skeptical that Jesus existed. Certainly not the god-man portrayed by Christianity. How much historicality is needed for it to be a kernel of truth. Yeshua was a common name back then in Palestine. There are records of rabbis with that name. Is that enough for you? It's not enough for my to draw a line between one of them and the Christ myth of the Hellenized Jews/Gnostics that formed Christianity. But who knows, maybe they heaped their myth on one or two actual people as a template for their man-god.



I am also skeptical that Pythagoras, Socrates, King Arthur, and Buddha were real people.



You're being presumptuous to leap from "it's possible" to "extensive evidence". And that is a result of wishful thinking.
vérité
2010-03-11 13:48:33 UTC
It depends on what you mean... if you mean some guy by the name of Jesus who was deified and worshiped existed... then sure, that's probably true.



If you mean somebody like who is described in the Bible existed... well, there's not only no proof of that, but good reason to believe it's false (mainly that the Bible chronicles events that would have made it to secular history if they had actually occurred).



Look up non-Biblical references of Jesus... you'll be shocked.
?
2010-03-11 16:44:47 UTC
People will contort things to fit their beliefs is why. Jesus Christ was very REAL.
skeptik
2010-03-11 13:50:47 UTC
Claiming that no scholars hold an opinion doesn't mean that no scholars hold the opinion.



The fact that many non-Christian historians don't dispute the historicity of his existence really only means that, as non-Christians, they don't really care. People who don't care about something generally don't research it. Scholars who haven't researched something generally don't form strong opinions about it.
2010-03-11 13:50:22 UTC
I kind of think that he did exist myself. but that opinion is not supported by any evidence outside the bible.



now before you start going all flavius josephus on me...that single passage was forged.



before you go africanus on me, that was written several decades after the fact.



it's not a ridiculous claim at all. in fact the claim that he did is the one that requires the evidence.
2010-03-11 13:48:39 UTC
There's no body, no corpse, nada.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation.



But me, personally...

...I don't think this man in particular, as described in christian scripture, existed.

Not that 'man', that miracle worker and demigod.



But there's nothing saying he couldn't have been a simple carpenter with humanitarian ideals.



Of course, I don't care, either way.
✞ Ephesians 2:8 ✞
2010-03-11 13:59:06 UTC
✞I believe that it is all three reasons...some just really have no knowledge of Jesus,



others "hope" desperately that He does not exist because they do not want to give up their "freedom" to sin and feel that it is ok.The gather themselves together to sooth their conscience..



and lastly there are those that have been turned over as reprobates because they have chosen to believe a lie...
CJunk
2010-03-11 13:47:09 UTC
I dont believe he existed. I think he is more likely jewish tradition woven into greek mythology



And the scholarsd do not have a consenses on the existence of Jesus. about 25% joing the myth side. 95% is needed for a consensus.





I agree that the historians who believe Jesus existed are wrong, and I am no historian.. LOL
2010-03-11 13:49:00 UTC
Frankly, the reality is we have precisely zero primary reference material and scant heresay secondary reference material.



If Christianity didn't exist, there would be no reason to believe Jesus existed.
Got Proof?
2010-03-11 13:51:05 UTC
The Jesus of the Bible is make believe. Whether an actual person named Jesus existed at that time is speculative and based on ancient documents and hearsay.
2010-03-11 13:49:22 UTC
You're not looking at this rationally. There are two Jesus'; there's the mythical Jesus who was allegedly born of a virgin, sired by a god, could walk on water and bring the dead back to life. There is absolutely no evidence that this Jesus was real. Then there's the other Jesus, a ordinary Jewish carpenter who went crazy and thought he was the messiah of Jewish prophecy. The first Jesus is an impossible myth, the second Jesus is more likely to be real and is a better explanation for the origin of Christianity.
2010-03-11 13:53:57 UTC
this is a stupid claim by zeitgeist.Were romans stupid so they established a religion against their system then they tried to corrupt it with paul and killed christians



you know what i say is something christians can not ignore and atheists can not answer :)



truth is always under pressure
?
2010-03-11 13:47:48 UTC
Rant
websparrow2000
2010-03-11 13:49:48 UTC
Those who fear "him" only and want to do as they please without the consequences of their sins!

God Bless
?
2010-03-11 13:47:58 UTC
I don't believe he existed either.
?
2016-02-25 22:41:31 UTC
It's commendable you're searching. Yes! Our Lord Jesus is real! "NO, IT WAS NOT BY FOLLOWING ARTFULLY CONTRIVED FALSE STORIES THAT WE ACQUAINTED YOU WITH THE POWER AND PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, BUT IT WAS BY HAVING BECOME EYEWITNESSES OF HIS MAGNIFICENCE." – 2 PETER 1:16



Bear a couple things in minds – 1) Archaeology works within a framework – so beggers can't be choosers 2) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. It is quite ironic, that a lot the vocal dissenters are not only ignorant to how experts understand history but, also will have no problem accepting the existence of Kings and Queens and figures where there is virtually nothing but a name and maybe a brief story several centuries afterwards.



The Bible provides outstanding evidence, that Jesus Christ was a real person though. The Bible speaks of Christ Jesus as real and historical and, describes much of his life in great detail (1 Peter 1:16). Individuals in the first century could cross reference his genealogy with the gospel account of Matthew and Luke. There were actually eight different of these writers – and they were contemporaries to Christ Jesus himself. One of these eight individuals investigated Jesus' life and interviewed eyewitnesses (Luke 1:1-4). At least, five knew Jesus personally, some actually being close relatives e.g., two were his younger half-brothers and three of the writers were of Jesus chosen "12 apostles" that he himself selected. The details in their writings testify to their First Century origin (the city of Jerusalem was destroyed about 37 years after his death). These different writers provided differing glimpses into the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. To the haters out, some of the oldest of these manuscripts were dated by scholars to be about approximately 25-50 years after they were to originally written. That alone speaks volumes in the validity or historicity of person Jesus Christ. You would be quite hard-pressed to that amount MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE for a lot other individuals widely-accepted as historical. – (SEE: GREENLEAF'S TESTIMONY)



THE 27 BOOKS OF THE "NEW TESTAMENT" ALONE PROVIDES DOCUMENTATION FROM 8 DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS LIVING IN THE FIRST CENTURY TO JESUS CHRIST.



1) – “MATTHEW” – MATTITHYAHU LEWI BEN ALPHAEUS – (one of the 12 Apostles) – The Gospel of Matthew – (Papyri 104 located at the Ashmolean Museum which is dated to circa 150 C.E.)

2) – “MARK” – YEHOHANAN MARCUM – The Gospel of Mark.

3) – “LUKE” – LOUKAN – The Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. – (Papyri 4 dated presently located at the National Library of France which is dated to circa 175-250 C.E.)

4) – “JOHN” – YEHOHANAN BEN ZEBEDEE (a relative of Jesus and one of 12 Apostles) – The Gospel of John, The books of 1st 2nd and 3rd John and the book of Revelation... – (See the Rylands Papyrus 457 (P52) dated to circa 125 C.E.)

5) – “PAUL” – SHA'UL HAT-TARSI (PAULUS) – The books of Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Hebrews.

6) – “JAMES” – YA‛AQOV BEN YOSEF (brother of Jesus) – The book of James.

7) – “JUDE” – YUDAH BEN YOSEF (brother of Jesus) – The book of Jude.

8) – “PETER” – SHIMON ('KEPHAS' – 'PETROS') BAR YONAH (one of the 12 apostles) – The books of 1st and 2nd Peter.



“MEN OF ISRAEL, HEAR THESE WORDS: JESUS THE NAZARENE WAS A MAN PUBLICLY SHOWN TO YOU BY GOD THROUGH POWERFUL WORKS AND WONDERS AND SIGNS THAT GOD DID THROUGH HIM IN YOUR MIDST, JUST AS YOU YOURSELVES KNOW.” – ACTS 2:22



EXTRABIBLICAL: After the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 C.E. many of the non-Christian eyewitnesses of Christ Jesus died; numerous records, some possibly even referring to Jesus, were no doubt lost and destroyed. Following that a large-scale genocide where many of the Jews were slaughtered occurred. However, even still glimpses that attest to the historicity of Christ Jesus still emerge from outside of Bible. FOOD FOR THOUGHT: would it be logical for these writers to depicted an individual they supposedly made up? Why would do so? and why would they include elements like his baptism, washing the feet of his disciples, enduring a humiliating execution on a torture stake?



The Early Christian disciples not only just acknowledged Jesus but actively proclaimed Christ Jesus' teaching, life, death and resurrection and doing that knowing so it was most likely lead to their death sentence. Additionally, early Christians did not participate in warfare (unlike Islam) therefore governments hated them, the Roman emperors and orthodox Jewish leaders both hated them. So what convinced them?



The Encyclopædia Britannica, 2002 Edition, says: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”





– FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS – (YOSEF BEN MATITYAHU) – (37 C.E. – Circa 100 C.E.) Flavius Josephus' name was originally Yosef ben Matityahu, he was not only a man of great prominence among the Romans but was an extremely knowledgeable and prominent Kohanim Jew (the means a Levitic priest – a descendant from Aaron brother of Moses), his father was a prominent Kohan (A Levitic priest – a descendant from Aaron brother of Moses) and his mother was Jewish noblewoman. Remember Jesus' life was cut short (at the age of 33) Josephus was not knowledgeable but, he was also a contemporary to the most of the people who were alive during Jesus' day, including some of the remaining Apostles. – See the what scholars called the, "Testimonium Flavianum". Josephus in addition to mentioning Jesus' himself, (in his work the Book, Jewish Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, par. 3.) also mentions many of the political leaders of Jesus' day, John the baptist (in work his book Jewish Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 5, par. 2) and James the brother of Jesus (Jewish Antiquities, Book 20, chapter 19). – (Remember Jerusalem was destroyed about 37 years after Jesus' death. The virtually every single one of documents from ancient Israel during the time of Jesus' were found not in Jerusalem but in the arid desert caves Quram – the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls were carefully concealed in tall jars within the caves after being carefully wrapped in linen. Sadly most were deteriorating shape even considering.)

– PUBLIUS CORNELIUS “TACITUS” – (56 C.E. – 117 C.E.) Tacitus was a Roman historian. "Tacitus was certainly among Rome’s best historians" – Lawrence Mykytiuk. References Jesus Christ in his work, “the Annals”, Book 15, chapter 44.

– PAPIAS – (Circa 60 – 130 C.E) seems to have been a disciple of the Apostle John and a friend of Polycarp.

– MARA BAR-SERAPION – (Circa 73 C.E.) – Talks about Romans killing the "King of the Jews" on a stake. – DISCLAIMER: It is unconfirmed if this references Jesus or someone else. He was a Stoic philosopher from the Roman province of Syria. He is noted for a letter he wrote in Syriac to his son, who was also named Serapion.

– GAIUS “SUETONIUS” TRANQUILLUS – (69 C.E. – 122 C.E) – Suetonius was a Roman historian, references the early Christians in his work, Lives of the Twelve Caesars.

– POLYCARP – (Circa 69 – 155 C.E) An early so-called "Church Father" from 2nd-century.

– PLINY THE YOUNGER – Roman governor of Bithynia-Pontus (now in modern Turkey) wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan Letter dated to circa 111-112 C.E. regarding Early Christians.

– LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA – (125 C.E – after 180 C.E) Lucian was a Greek anti-Christian satirist

– GALEN – (129 C.E. – Circa 200 C.E.) physician, references early Christians.

– CELSUS – (Circa 177 C.E.) Greek philosopher, and opponent of Early Christianity, during 2nd-Century.

– JUSTIN MARTYR – (100 – 165 C.E) an early 'Christian' apologist.

– THALLUS – (2nd Century C.E.) – (through Sextus Julius Africanus quotes)

– PHLEGON OF TRALLES – (2nd Century C.E.) Greek writer and freedman of Emperor Hadrian.

– NUMENIUS OF APAMEA – (2nd Century C.E.) Greek philosopher.

– PORPHYRY OF TYRE – (3rd Century C.E.) an antagonist of Christianity





– TALMUDIC LITERATURE – "The late Bruce Metzger of Princeton, has commented upon this appellation: The defamatory account of his birth seems to reflect a knowledge of the Christian tradition that Jesus was the son of the virgin Mary, the Greek word for virgin, parthenos, being distorted into the name Pandera (1965, 76). The Talmud also refers to Jesus’ miracles as “magic,” and records that he claimed to be God. It further mentions his execution on the eve of the Passover. Jewish testimony thus supports the New Testament position on the historical existence of Jesus."



ARCHAEOLOGY: The money in usage of the time of Jesus, the Lepton coin (Luke 21:2), Quadran (Mathew 5:26), Assarion (Matthew 10:29), Denarius (Matthew 10:20) the Tetradrachma coin (Matthew 17:24-27). The archaeologial site of Capernaum (thatch roof houses) – "removed the roof" – (Mark 2:1-4) and the synagogue at Capernaum (Mark 1:21-28; John 6:25-59) The Pool of Bethzeda (Bethesda) – (John 5:1-9), the Pool of Siloam (John 9), Herod's palace, The ossuaries of the priest Caiaphas (Matthew 26:3, 57, Luke 3:1; John 11:26; 18:12-28; Acts 4:5, 6), Caiaphas' granddaughter, and Alexander son of Simon of Cyrene, possibly the same as person mentioned in Mark 15:21. These are only a few examples. If you inbox me I can send you examples of prophecy. Hope this helps.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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