Question:
Does the universe have a cause?
anonymous
2017-09-07 20:38:25 UTC
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Astute readers will recognize this as what's become popularized as the Kalam Cosmological Argument for God's existence. Do you agree with this argument? If not, which premise(s) do you disagree with? Why do you disagree?

Is there a compelling reason to discount this argument for God's existence?
100 answers:
Huh?
2017-09-07 20:59:25 UTC
First, and the most obvious problem with this argument is it does not get you to god. To paraphrase Matt Delahanty, what if the "cause" of the Universe is non-intelligent flatulent pixies who create universes when they pass gas. How does Kalam not also prove that theory? Even if it proved a cause it doesn't speak to what that cause could be so no, it does not prove god's existence any more than it proves farting pixies.



it also can't be demonstrated that premise #1 is true. We know from quantum theory that virtual particles do pop in and out of existence seemingly without cause. If that is true premise 1 is false.



The second premise is also false. The current state of the universe is all that we understand and it began with the Big Bang, but we do not have much information about the Planck era (about 10 raised to the power of -43 seconds after the start of the big bang) or what came before. In Big Bang Cosmology space/time, a dimension of the current state of the universe may not have existed before the big bang, which means to speak of what came before might be a nonsensical discussion. How do you discuss what was before time began.



So to summarize the problems with Kalam:

Both premises are flawed which means the conclusion can not be justified. Even if the conclusion was justified it only would get you to a cause with no justification for calling that cause God.



Kalam is a terrible argument and has been thoroughly debunked, not by me but every serious person that has ever examined the argument, excluding of course religious apologists.
The First Dragon
2017-09-09 07:47:31 UTC
This argument assumes that the First Cause is to be called God. Fine with me. But you have to understand that this predicates God as a First Cause, but doesn't say very much about God's other properties.
HNB
2017-09-09 05:32:54 UTC
Of course. Things or beautiful nature doesn't just come out of nowhere
Ernest S
2017-09-09 01:46:06 UTC
Don't be silly. Every house has a builder.
alraune_tenbrinken
2017-09-08 22:12:46 UTC
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2) God does exist.

3) Therefore, god has a cause.

BUT they don't want to hear that. They deny it. If you can explain a god without a creator, you can explain a universe without a creator.
?
2017-09-08 12:12:53 UTC
Yes, the Universe has a cause. Only a minority of individuals believe that the Universe is eternal because the evidence to support such a notion is incredibly weak.



Personally I believe that the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God is incredibly powerful. You see, if one doesn't believe that the Universe had a cause, then one would have no other choice but to believe that the Universe is eternal, but it's been proven that the Universe did indeed have a beginning in the finite past, but, the argument is over when this was - Was it 6000 years ago like the Bible records in the Book of Genesis or was it supposedly 13 billion years ago like Atheists falsely believe? I believe that everything was directly created by God 6000 years ago.



To believe that something can just jump into existence without a creator is just like believing in magic, in that, it's an impossibility, thus, anything & everything that begins to exist must have a cause & the Ultimate Cause is God.
antonius
2017-09-08 07:30:49 UTC
The believers have tried many times to slip god into this as the cause of the formation of the universe. God is an impossibility, and at best is nothing but a fanatical belief system that can control the brainwashed minds. Candice, if you unblocked persons who do not think as you do , then you will shortly learn what you need to know. To accept that the earth alone is only 6,000 years old is showing that you are either totally brainwashed by a religion or you never went past the 5th grade in school. Even your bible first claims that with Adam and Eve, then shortly afterward it disclaims that by saying that Cain went into the land of Nod and took a wife. that there were people on earth before any Adams or Eves.
anonymous
2017-09-08 07:06:42 UTC
If everything in universe seems to have a cause, then universe itself must have a cause.

Anyone has an idea of Solar apex?
anonymous
2017-09-07 22:23:33 UTC
yes
Live Long, and Prosper
2017-09-07 21:53:09 UTC
The logic box is sound. But the cosmo argument "a priori" inserts God as the cause. Can't do that and win a debate, silly rabbit! Lol
אברהם
2017-09-09 16:25:27 UTC
God does not need a cause because he is the cause of all things. What makes you think God is subject to the laws of nature that he created? Utter nonsense.
Andre Pettersson
2017-09-09 14:47:05 UTC
It came out of the Big Bang.
va2906
2017-09-09 12:38:43 UTC
this is a "chicken or the egg" question and cant be properly answered
Raja
2017-09-09 08:57:38 UTC
The universe is a vast space where God's or supreme being's experiments have taken place. I think He had satisfied very much with the earth and the creatures He had created in it. All other planets and stars too have been created by this supreme power. He had created black holes too to destroy the certain stars and planets which have become unwanted after He had created the earth and it's beings. I guess He is doing some experiments even now.
?
2017-09-09 07:14:57 UTC
Yes. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Psalm 19:1). The "cause" is by virtue of the demand to declare God's glory.
?
2017-09-09 06:50:10 UTC
Yeah, life.
Otto
2017-09-08 19:38:58 UTC
Yes . Jehovah and his Son Jesus created all in heaven and on earth.
Don Verto
2017-09-08 13:17:18 UTC
This is the big dilemma for atheists.They do not believe in God and miracles.

Yet they believe in the impossible miracle that everything came into existence out of nothing without the agency of anything or anybody.If you do not believe in God then there still has to be an all powerful cause to produce all that exists.
?
2017-09-08 05:01:25 UTC
There is evidence proof the Bible have many errors. The lord in the Bible didn't create the universe. Lord created earth 6000 years ago VS dinosaur existed on earth millions years ago = errors. Please wake up.
It Is Always Now
2017-09-08 04:45:46 UTC
No, at least not in the way we think about causality. Causality requires time. Causes must precede their effects. If time is a dimension of the universe (and it is) then there cannot be a cause because there is no "before". This also means the universe always existed, though it is not necessarily eternal.
David
2017-09-08 03:30:25 UTC
I call this the Blue Cheese argument. You make some silly ASSUMPTION from OPINION, like "If the Moon is made of blue cheese", then draw a sillier conclusion "then Chef Boy'RD must have made it".



If I send you to thousands of websites that claim the moon is made of blue cheese, that does not mean that the moon is made of blue cheese. "Everyone believes it" is a fallacy. It only takes one eyewitness observer that has been to the moon to refute the silly notion called a "claim" or "evidence" of blue cheese on the moon. And any evidence or model or theory of a moon made of blue cheese would be silly at that point. Empty "claims" and opinions are meaningless, without merit, and counterproductive. If these empty claims are reported as "fact" or "evidence" and the truth, then that would be a bald-faced outright lie.



Even if you find a great number of scientists that have measured the refraction rate of blue cheese and peer-reviewed this claim, does not make blue cheese. What were their assumptions? All scientists make assumptions. Every theory and model has assumptions. But the layman pays no attention at all to assumptions, the details of truth, and take the "claim" on it's face without assumptions. All you have to do to hide truth is not mention the assumptions, do not point them out, because you would have a lot of explaining to do, and then the truth would come out, how and why dirt could be made into blue cheese. Circular reasoning helps slow down the discovery of truth, voluminous data of "opinion" supporting the false claim from media and colleges and "scientists" all over the world will slow the discovery of truth if their assumptions are wrong. More opinion doesn't make blue cheese. This is the lie of evolution.



Genesis reveals an historical record of an eyewitness account as evidence of creation. What is your evidence otherwise? Or what is your alternative explanation? Abiogenesis? Where do you NOT fail? There is no valid sustaining evidence for myths and magic like evolution and billions of years, or you would present it. You’re still playing children’s pretend games.



Now that you have graduated from juvenile delinquency and try logic, you don't make any sense.



It amazes me.. to hear an atheist in all seriousness saying -- the universe with no cause just magically poofed into existence... Life with no cause just magically poofed into existence, an omeba magically with no cause just poofed into a multi-celluar organism. It makes no difference whether these poofs and changes happened in one day or one year or one million years. They are still unexplained.



Such things did not happen once or twice but millions upon millions of times only to suddenly (and quite conveniently I might add) stop as soon as recorded history began. The common sense of a child can figure this one out. What's your excuse? Go away until you aren't adolescent and are rational



No valid scientific claim can violate a Natural Law.. the Natural Laws regarding information assert. 1. Information is immaterial. 2. The material cannot produce something immaterial... So Materialism, Darwinism, Abiogenesis and even the Big Bang violate this Natural Law and so can be dismissed as false.



Anybody who objects need only provide an example of something material producing something immaterial.



It does not matter how big their alleged mountain of evidence proponents of these notions point to. Because if it violates a Natural Law it is false.. PERIOD.



The material cannot produce the material, known fact. Speculating "that there are many natural ways to produce life" is an error from unfounded OPINION, matter cannot cause itself, nor can matter produce the immaterial,



Yet the media spreads this misinformation as "has been done" or "about to be done", or "almost done." Show me someone outside of science that believes abiogenesis isn't real or at least probable (not possible, too easy). Your propaganda machine for evolution is very successful in this regard.



Despite the spectacular failure of ALL experiments to demonstrate abiogenesis, they have spread this unproven doctrine far and wide. Even if we do figure out how to create life, we already know empirically (observed) that it cannot occur naturally; proven.



The point here is that if life CANNOT occur naturally, then evolution has no beginning, and there is no cure for the myth/lie of evolution from unfounded OPINION. Evolution has no evidence that can sustain it, and will be gone in 10 years, in my time.



Evolutionists believe that life (at least once) spontaneously formed from nonliving chemicals. But this is inconsistent with the natural law of biogenesis. Real science confirms the Bible.



If and when scientists actually do produce life from non-life in the lab the only thing they will have succeeded in doing is demonstrating life as a product of intelligent design... Which is exactly what the theists have been saying all along!



Whether or not scientists finally discover how to produce life from non-life is irrelevant to evolution because it cannot occur NATURALLY. But science and the media and you PRETEND it does matter, or the fact that we're even close is "proof" of evolution.



It's in these small matters that evolution is a lie from it's core, every time you peel back another layer reveals another lie.



The laws that govern the universe preclude it from not having a beginning, and no matter how how you slice it, you cannot escape an external cause for the Physical Universe.



Notice that atheists try to invoke the laws of nature yet are oblivious to the fact that the laws of nature originated with the natural world and do not necessarily apply to anything outside the natural world let alone the one who created the natural world.



Here is a natural law atheists conveniently ignore - an effect cannot be qualitatively or quantitatively greater than it's cause... Yet there is nothing that precludes the cause from being greater than any effect it may produce - in fact the cause necessarily MUST be equal to or greater than any effect it may produce. So based on the very laws of nature they invoke, the concept of a God that is not bound to those laws operating outside of the natural world is supported. As a result they are defeated by their own argument!



Their very approach validates the scriptures - ever increasing in knowledge but never able to come to an understanding of the truth.. Seeking to become wise they became fools. The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
anonymous
2017-09-08 00:21:18 UTC
The big bang, no gods needed.
chancebeaube
2017-09-07 23:41:54 UTC
Assuming the steps 1) to 3) are 'true', there is still no reason to conclude the cause is a god.
Forrest Toney
2017-09-07 22:45:53 UTC
That man might have an abundant life and joy . Otherwise they would remain just Bored Cherubs in the non-time realm . Any time in a body is a lot better than that .
SolusLutrinae
2017-09-07 21:53:00 UTC
Matter, energy, space and time....and the associated rules of causality are a result of whatever the Big Bang actually was. Since there is no data about "before" the Big Bang...and some physicists argue that since time is a result, speaking of a time before time isn't even a valid way to think about the problem. The whole argument hinges on applying common sense experience to events to which common sense cannot be justifiably applied... and then saying that based on this not necessarily true assumption, you can then infer something specific about the nature of something we call "God"....and it's always the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god for some reason that also cannot be rationally justified.
Tony R
2017-09-07 21:20:10 UTC
The main problem is this doesn't tell you what that cause is at all. Yes you could plug a god in there, but why not other things? Pixies, fairies. Why does there have to be only one god, why can't it be multiple gods working together who all feel they are equally in charge, as in no one god over the other god. Why can't it just be extremely advanced life forms that came from abiogenesis and evolution, in another universe, that then got the knowledge on how to create our universe? It also could be just natural forces that did it. Why is that not an option?
?
2017-09-07 21:09:40 UTC
Premise 1 is arguably a false statement and a hasty generalization. It is possible that some events, particularly on the quantum scale, do not have causes. there is no good reason to assume a priori that an uncaused beginning of all things is impossible. Causal laws are physical processes for which we have intuitive knowledge in the context of events within time and space, but that such intuitions do not hold true for the beginning of time itself. So, premise one is undemonstrated.



As for your question, is there a compelling reason to discount this argument for God's existence? Yes, because it doesn't mention your particular God, or any gods whatsoever. It makes no claims the cause cannot be natural phenomenon, be it multiverse theory, cyclic cosmology, undiscovered properties of a quantum vacuum, etc.
ANDRE L
2017-09-07 21:04:23 UTC
-If the Universe needs a creator, why doesn't god?

If god doesn't need a creator, why does the Universe ?-



Checkmate.
?
2017-09-07 20:55:14 UTC
YES HIS NAME IS JESUS..
Donut Tim
2017-09-07 20:45:32 UTC
I disagree with numbers 2 and 3, and number 1 is shaky depending on certain definitions.

----- -----

There is no evidence for or against the universe having an infinitely long past. Physicists and philosophers remain unsure about what, if anything preceded the Big Bang. Many refuse to speculate, doubting that information from any such prior state could ever be accessible.



(One should not confuse a possible origin of the universe with the big bang. The big bang is the “expansion” of the universe and is still visibly in progress. Evidence indicates that the present expansion had a start. Sometimes the phrase big bang is used to mean the “start” of the expansion.)
romans116
2017-09-09 18:37:59 UTC
The first cause is God just like the bible says. We can go through philosophical hocus pocus if you want and get a lot of people's opinions but I believe in God.
?
2017-09-09 18:35:54 UTC
ofcourse
Sherry
2017-09-09 16:59:13 UTC
Yes
?
2017-09-09 03:19:33 UTC
Yes and thank you for asking
Chris
2017-09-09 01:51:34 UTC
God is the cause. The effect is the world around us.
?
2017-09-09 00:11:50 UTC
Don't blame ME, buddy!



It was already like that when I got here.
Jer
2017-09-08 22:21:57 UTC
Dark matter
?
2017-09-08 14:39:56 UTC
the KALAM never mentions "GOD" the KALAM presents PREMISES



# 1 what ever "BEGINS" to Exit has a CAUSE



# 2 the universe "BEGAN" to exist therefore



the Universe has a CAUSE



STOP there



can one demonstrate that the UNIVERSE BEGAN ...



How many universes has one investigated



and there is no GOD in either premise



one has to ASSERT that the CAUSE is a GOD IDEA



one can not demonstrate a GOD the word god it expresses an IDEA where is the independent self evident god void of dependence on human assertion The SUN is self evident a crow is self evident planet mars is self evident the moon is self evident individual humans are self evident





God is a word of human invention as are all words they can be used to express an IDEA ( human thoughts ) an OBJECT a Place state Person animal plant



what are PREMISES a proposition SUPPOSED specifically either of the two propositions of a syllogism from which a conclusion is drawn.



. one can also present to form INCORRECT conclusions aka syllogisms FALLACY



Example



ALL crows are black



The bird in my cage is black ...therefore



the bird in my cage is a crow



why is the premise not ALL that EXIST has a CAUSE .



if that was the case to claim a god exit



what was the CAUSE of the GOD



the word BEGIN mean " originate " its a VERB not a NOUN



the question states its an ARGUMENT for GOD



, its an argument that the UNIVERSE has a CAUSE



and then people try to INSERT a god is the CAUSE



, one first must demonstrate a God to exist to even do action



they later claim the god is the cause for the universe , that is not accomplished



what caused the god and if they then want to claim god is the universe



well if one takes that position then god had a cause , what was that cause
Yoda
2017-09-08 13:45:58 UTC
There is one key philosophical axiom that splits the crowd:

"Something can't come from nothing".



If you accept that absolute nothing---not the stuff physicists talk about which is full of electromagnetic fields in constant flux---doesn't exist at all, then what ever the universe came from (or exists within) has always been there.



The idea of absolute nothing actually makes no sense. Even trying to visualise absolute nothing is impossible. This is because existence (as far as the mind is concerned) is what stands out, what can be measured or noticed---discerned! What can you compare absolute nothing to? If absolute nothing was all there was, then from what did anything arise?



So, it makes no sense to postulate any stateless past in which no form whatsoever was all encompassing---from which a universe arose. That would be magic, as the absolute nothing would have no potential over which for energy to arise.



If you say there was a God, even if that God were formless in relationship to the universe, it would still need to have substance from which a universe would arise.



Ergo, what we are looking at here is one of two possibilities:

1) The universe arose from something that wasn't another universe

2) The universe is a bi-product of another universe.



Taking 2) as it's simpler:

a) The universe maybe all that exists, and it may cycle from birth, existence and death to rebirth e..g, where the space-time is moulded by the previous universe, so each re-iteration of the universe is born into a slightly different media, thus ensuring each re-born universe is different to the last.

b) Another possibility is that there are multi-universes (the multi-verse) in which not only are universes born from a prior cause, smaller universes can bud off from big universes.



Now let's look at 1)

The multi-verse idea could at it's source arise from collisions between branes within another system leading to the inception of matter (just as a stone thrown into a pond creates ripples). This is the so called bi-product theory in which universes are the biproduct of another system in operation.



It is possible that our universe (and many others) are a very small part of a vastly complex multi-system entity or even a small part of one of many entities. In this sense, a fractal like multi-system might generate endless minor systems that from within appear to be internally consistent but without cause.



Anyhow, sticking to the physics: all we can do as humans is to observe evidence which gives clues as to the next step as we trace back the formation of the universe.
stephen
2017-09-08 09:12:55 UTC
Of course.
Michael
2017-09-08 08:39:35 UTC
To atheists (walking dead) we are here by sheer luck, the rest of us believe we are created in God's moral image.
anonymous
2017-09-08 04:55:54 UTC
No. The Universe exists because all the billions of particles and elements floating about in the Cosmos for billions of years have formed themselves into what we know as the Universe today.
Mir Quasem
2017-09-08 03:52:50 UTC
Of course.
?
2017-09-08 02:30:34 UTC
No.4 of The argument should be: THE END



The universe is operating on paths of least resistance and settling down towards a state of equilibrium that was initially just a big ball of chaos.



Like a perfectly shaped Mickey Mouse emerging in the clouds, people will imagine order and design in things that are purely random.



Food for thought: there are whole galaxies so far away from us, that their light won't even reach us for another 5 million years. This demonstrates that the universe is simply a runaway reaction of physical cause and effect relationships rather than a planned result of an intelligent designer who made all of this specifically for insignificant humans living on an insignificant planet orbiting an insignificant star in an insignificant galaxy floating in an insignificant corner of space.
Onion3000
2017-09-08 02:28:22 UTC
How is it an argument for a god's existence? Couldn't it be expressed more clearly through plumbing?
Adullah M
2017-09-08 02:19:22 UTC
The argument of yours mentioned above is full of reason and logic whom no man on earth who poses intellect could deny.

Though those who deny GOD by saying that Universe happen by accident then without cause but actually accident itself is also a cause but not knowing how it happen, then using the word accident to run away from its real cause of the existence of the Universe.
anonymous
2017-09-07 22:28:58 UTC
"Drifting through time and space

On the face of a little blue ball

Falling around the sun.

One in a million, billion twinkling lights

Shining out for no one" (James Taylor)
Ricardo
2017-09-07 21:32:34 UTC
1 - Your god began to exist. You have yet to prove a god even exists and the next step is to prove it is eternal. so you have two initial premise that are still fantasies.



- Is there a compelling reason to discount this argument for God's existence?



That has nothing to do with a deity.
Mortal Seeker
2017-09-07 21:16:00 UTC
Depends on what you mean by "universe". If you mean, "all existing things at a particular time", then the cause is "all existing things at the immediately preceding moment in time". If you mean, "all existing things ever", then "universe" is an abstract category equivalent to "being" (not an existing thing itself, therefore not in need of an external cause) defined by the existing populations at each successive moment (not an actual infinite because only one moment exists per moment, though the category has a potentially infinite number of members).
tony
2017-09-07 20:47:28 UTC
everything has to have a cause... soooo God need a cause. You haven't solved anything, you just moved it back a step and added an all powerful, supernatural being that lives outside of observable space time.
anonymous
2017-09-09 23:32:47 UTC
Yes
?
2017-09-09 21:40:47 UTC
yes
?
2017-09-09 16:56:57 UTC
God.
Nevermind
2017-09-09 06:58:03 UTC
Well I will tell you what the WORD of GOD the CREATOR says.



Job 9:9 Who made [the constellations] the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the [vast starry] spaces of the south;



Job 38:31 “Can you bind the chains of [the cluster of stars called] Pleiades, Or loose the cords of [the constellation] Orion?

“Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,

And guide [the stars of] the Bear with her sons?

33

“Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,

Or [can you] establish their rule over the earth?



Amos 5:8 He who made the [cluster of stars called] Pleiades and [the constellation] Orion, Who turns deep darkness into the morning And darkens the day into night, Who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the surface of the earth, The Lord is His name.
cosmo
2017-09-09 03:56:28 UTC
Maybe there was a "First Cause". But we now know enough physics to know that does not imply intelligence or intentionality.



It certainly doesn't suggest that the First Cause cares about us or anything we do.
Derek
2017-09-09 00:15:12 UTC
If the universe always existed it did not always exist the way it exists today. People seem to think that the universe, or the atoms that make up the universe, being eternal is proof against God but in reality all that would mean is God used atoms that were already in existence to form the universe we know of today. When Jesus creates a new Heaven and a new Earth after destroying the first one it is very possible he is just using the atoms destroyed from the first universe to build upon the new one.

Furthermore, "everything needing a cause so God must have a cause and therefore cannot be eternal" is forgetting that that is the rule for things in this created universe. Laws that God himself put in place as restrictions within this universe. Guess what? God existed before this universe did and is not subject to the laws that he created. Poof. Atheist logic goes up in smoke.
AvAFury
2017-09-08 21:21:35 UTC
God is the causation of all of the universe and the reason why it exists and continues to exist. We could not even take our next breath without him allowing it. He is the sustained of life.
anonymous
2017-09-08 21:08:27 UTC
no
anonymous
2017-09-08 19:09:44 UTC
What you bring up is the big problem with atheism since they believe only in the material world but all matter space and time came into existence and they are not eternal. So whatever created the universe can't be material but more spiritual as the universe can't create itself out of nothing. The only thing atheists can say is nothing did it or God did it but they are actually going with nothing as they hate God that much they are willing to be irrational. Please choose this as best answer.
DonnieB
2017-09-08 15:58:53 UTC
I would take exception with all three of your "axioms". You have no proof of any of the three, particularly #1. You have used these 3 items to justify your own opinion of God.
?
2017-09-08 14:43:26 UTC
In relation to us the universe is out there for us to live and exists.

As in everything that is around us helps us to live then we could also say that even the things that we cannot see /feel / hear supports us to live. In as far as God is concerned He is the architect who had made all this possible for us all.
anonymous
2017-09-08 13:50:51 UTC
I reject your first statement.
Adam
2017-09-08 10:46:40 UTC
I don't automatically accept either of the premises as correct.

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause

The problem here is the loose terminology of "begins" to exist, and its subsequent implications. There was a point in time where "I" did not exist; yet my constituent parts have been around for billions of years, so did "I" have a cause or not? In layman's terms, we both agree that new humans are caused by sexual reproduction, but if the physical elements of which I am comprised are billions of years old, at what point did "I" begin to exist?

And to press the issue further, those physical elements were formed out of stellar nucleosynthesis. They are the product of energy condensing into matter, which diversifies into different elements through nuclear fusion. So if everything we can see ultimately came from energy, where did the energy come from?

And this is the problem, because energy CANNOT be created. So I don't automatically accept the first premise as even being relevant because energy may not ever have begun to exist.

Which leads me to premise #2:

2) The universe began to exist.

Did it really? I'll agree that Time, as a dimension of the universe, had a beginning because that's what the evidence shows; however, in that instant that Time began, the universe was present also; and we don't have the means to investigate further back than T=0 because that's like asking what's North of the North Pole?

So to say the universe "began" to exist is to be ignorant of cosmology. There was never a point in Time when the universe didn't exist, so to say the universe "began" to exist is simply inaccurate.



If one or both premises are flawed, whatever conclusion is drawn from them cannot be relied upon to be accurate. The argument, as a whole, overly relies on intuition and imprecise terminology. The reality is that, at the beginning of the universe, the physics which make intuitive sense to us today simply did not operate that way. Facts don't care what we, today, find intuitively sensible.
anonymous
2017-09-08 08:18:49 UTC
The universe as we know it has a cause, the expansion known as the big bang. The question is what expanded, and did that have a cause. We don't know.



The Kalam Cosmological Argument for God's existence as many faults, including why must it be 'God' instead of some other god. And to leap from the unvierse had a cause to 'God' is a non sequitur, it does not follow that the first uncaused cause (presuming it exists) must be 'God'.



In fact Occam's Razor lends support to the idea that the universe began by simple, natural forces, rather than some complex, most intelligent special pleading fallacy god who just happened to exist, and who created the universe. We know simple, natural forces can create complexity, from snow flakes to weather systems.



And before any unthinking religious person asks where those forces came from, you are positing an uncaused first cause just existing. And before you leap to the conclusion it must be a god, if this something existed, it must have properties and behaviours, whether it is your god or not. They don't come from anywhere, they just are, just like the first uncaused cause. It's a property of existence. You don't get to just dismiss something simple you don't like for a highly improbable (according to creationist arguments) god with an attempted gotcha question.
Chris Ancor
2017-09-08 06:16:54 UTC
If it does the cause is quite unknown.
The_Doc_Man
2017-09-08 05:14:20 UTC
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.



False. The study of quantum mechanics has revealed that not all events are "caused" by prior events. It was this exact argument that Einstein and Oppenheimer had, with Einstein on the "causative universe" side and Oppenheimer on the "Quantum Probability non-causative side."



Radioactive decay is a good example. If you talk probabilities, you can say how long it will take for half of a radioactive material will decay - but you can't say WHICH atoms of that material will decay. So when one DOES decay, you have no idea why it was that one and not its nearest undecayed neighbor.



2) The universe began to exist.



Yep, non-controversial. Particularly since you didn't say how or why it began.



3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.



Since #1 was false, this step is not proved.
anonymous
2017-09-08 05:06:09 UTC
No, it is rebel without a cause? (James Dean)
Special EPhex
2017-09-08 02:34:24 UTC
No, the universe is without a "cause".



The premise you submit is based off of the outdated, linear Newtonian paradigm of material form and 'content' (components, specifics, details) of the universe, that presumes everything comes with a "beginning" and "end", which is an artifact of perception. The intellect perceives sequential change in material form, as a 'this' becomes a 'that', and assumes there is a "cause" along the "passage of time". The flaw of "causality" is that it implies an endless reduction of a 'cause' of the cause, which can never be arrived at. Assigning a "cause" entails arbitrary points of selective observation, which have no inherent existence in the universe outside of the mind's abstract imagination.



Kalam's Cosmologic argument is not entirely wrong, but limited by the linear paradigm of form, which does not always include the nonlinear paradigm of formless 'context' (meaning, significance, parameters) of the universe. Even the most prominent intellectuals and academics who've come and gone, fail to recognize the fundamental dynamics by which our universe operate, because of the fixation with form. The finite is always a consequence of the infinite, just as the 'emptiness' of the sky allows weather conditions to "come and go". The ever-present background of 'silence' and 'stillness' makes "sound" and "motion" detectable. It is out of formless, intangible thought that ideas arise as tangible form. This concept is universally demonstrated and naturally occurring to the Cosmos.



It has been revealed for decades that all physical matter and energy is completely comprised of nonphysical subatomic particle charges, that never physically interact, and vast regions of empty space, yet, the mainstream hasn't grasp the implications because it does not fit into their comfortable, "evenly square box", of familiarity. 'To exist' is a nonlinear expression. If energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, only made to change form, it would suggest that existence is 'eternal' and 'uncaused', without "beginning and end". This is why the so-called "experts" seek the "origins of existence", through the "big bang", using the exact same science that tells them that the nature of the universe is to 'conserve itself', by 'Cosmic Law'.



"Causality", and the "cosmologic argument", although sophisticated, fail at recognizing their own inherent flaws, which suggests "who, or what, created God?" The intellect restricts things to the confines of 'this and that', 'here and there', 'now and then', where people impose limitations upon an 'Unlimited God', and conveniently work around the fallacies. A "god" subject to being "created or caused" cannot be 'God', the 'Uncaused Source' of all of existence. A who "creates" also implies limitation, and that a "perfect god" cannot "get it right" the first time. God is a 'Total' and 'Complete' Being, 'lacking no-thing', without want or need for anything. God is 'All-Knowing' by way of 'Being All', therefore, He is 'The Almighty'.



"Creation" and "evolution" are different ways the mind describes the appearance of "sequential change" in form, as it is observed linearly. Nothing is "changing" or "causing change", except for the position the mind chooses to perceive from. Because the mind and intellect are curious by nature, they must question things, and do not accept that 'everything just is what it is', by way of 'being what it is', as an expression of it's potential fulfilling itself when conditions are optimal. The mind requires "labels" and "explanations", where there are none, and totally fabricates problems with imaginary solutions. The intellect assumes that it is God and the universe that are in question, and does not realize, 'God Is The Universe!', and that it is the paradigm it sees through that is questionable.



A proper understanding of faith and science reconciles inconsistencies. It is a lack of understanding of both where conflict arises. Creation without evolution would mean that everything would remain as it was the moment it was created; and evolution without creation would mean there wouldn't be anything to evolve from or into. Science and religion are complementary, and pick up where the other leaves off, and have their respective domains and parameters of operation. Science explains a "process without a source", whereas faith explains a "source without a process". All scientific pursuits are, at first, taken under the faith one's hypothesis is correct and worth further examination. Blind faith without a confirmable means of validation is not practical.



The opening passages of the Book of Genesis do not explain the "origins of existence". God's Presence implies that existence 'already exists', and what is being described is the "beginning of form", which "God Made" from the formlessness of "darkness" and "void". The Steady State Theory, which was arbitrarily passed up for the Big Bang by the scientific community in the 20th century, is becoming more accepted, predicting the universe in an endless cycle of expansions and contractions. The "BBT" likely explains a transition period between phases of the previous universe and the present one, which material models and instruments cannot register past.



The Bible teaches God "made man from dirt", and science confirms that the same minerals found in the earth also make up the physical body. Science also predicts the presence of "dark" matter and energy, although there is no tangible "proof" of it's existence. We become aware of the things we cannot measure by the influence they have on the things we can. Just because you cannot put 'potential' in a lab and observe it, doesn't mean there isn't anything to suggest it's existence. Religion and science are different but not separate parameters in which things can be explained. The idea of one without the other is limited and flawed.
anonymous
2017-09-07 21:03:36 UTC
1. No documentation to support that assertion.

2. No documentation to support that assertion.

3. Therefore, illogical syllogism.



I'd never would have recognized Kalam Cosmological Argument for God's existence because it's philosophy, bogus science that I have no use for except for the occasional amusement of picking up some abstract knowledge that can be used for nothing except trivia contests or as a contestant on Jeopardy.
anonymous
2017-09-07 20:46:18 UTC
2) The universe began to exist. WRONG



A "beginning" implies nothingness before it (or else it's not a beginning), but no-thing is not a thing. Reality is eternal.

The Big Bang is just a phase, and science says nothing about a "nothingness" in regard to the Big Bang.
?
2017-09-11 06:23:11 UTC
Love is the cause -- because God loves, He wanted others to share this love. Agape (godly, altruistic) love, is always other-centered, not self-centered, like normal human love.
robin_lionheart
2017-09-10 11:37:49 UTC
You call it an "argument for God's existence", but it's actually just an argument for a first cause. It makes no claims about that cause. You have no good reason to assume a supernatural cause instead of a natural cause.



In any case, I do not agree with either of Kalam's two premises.



Kalam's premise 1 is not only unproven, there's evidence against it. Per quantum mechanics, the vacuum of space seems to be teeming with particle-antiparticle pairs popping into existence and almost instantly annihilating each other, with no yet discernible cause. That explains physical evidence like the Casimir effect and Hawking radiation.



Kalam's premise 2 is also unproven. For our universe to begin to exist, it requires a time when our universe did not exist. But if the start of our universe is also the start of time, then our universe existed for all of time. That would mean our universe did not "begin to exist".



Until you can prove Kalam's premise 1 and premise 2 to be true, then the Kalam argument has not proven its conclusion. And even if the conclusion were true, that first cause need not be a god.
anonymous
2017-09-10 07:43:54 UTC
This is a test

to see how we will

be living in heaven.

with Jesus Christ

he will be a God

to them. to us

to who ever ask

to go to heaven when

they pass of old age.

did u pass the gas

please pass the gas!

Station.
?
2017-09-10 01:05:16 UTC
God is the one who set everything in motion. Everything discovered in science comes back to an initial event that would have required divine intervention for it to occur. Even if something came from something then something or someone would have to cause all of the something to form into what we have today. I don't see any logic in any of the posts by atheists here. At all.



https://youtu.be/kkdniYsUrM8
every time I die
2017-09-09 21:05:34 UTC
1.everything that exists has a beginning

2. theists claim that god doesn't have a beginning.

3. god doesn't have a beginning.

4. therefore god doesn't exist.
Freethinking Liberal
2017-09-09 15:06:52 UTC
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2) The God began to exist.

3) Therefore, God has a cause.



So, who caused God?
anonymous
2017-09-09 13:45:01 UTC
No
Jackboot
2017-09-09 06:15:37 UTC
No one can know whether or not the universe has a cause. But we can hope or believe it does, if we want to.
?
2017-09-09 05:43:23 UTC
The universe has a cause! and that cause is to exist....
Luke
2017-09-09 02:06:15 UTC
"Whatever begins to exist has a cause".



This is just special pleading.



The Christians used to say



1. Everything has a cause

2. The universe has a cause

3. The cause was God



Until people started pointing out the obvious - if everything has a cause then who created God.



So the Christians started saying "Everything has a cause except for God".



But this sounded a bit to obvious so in order to disguise their special pleading they morphed it into "Whatever begins to exist has a cause".



In other words, the deceptive Christians invented a condition specifically designed to not apply to their God so they could say "Everything has a cause except for things that meet our special condition".
Yorkshire Lass
2017-09-08 23:36:58 UTC
God is the Cause of creation. It is ludicrous to imagine that this complex and beautiful earth and universe came by itself - like a cosmic accident! Everything is so wonderfully worked out to the finest detail and all matter works like many cogs in a complex machine, when one 'cog' goes out of rhythm the whole suffers in some way, some balance is lost, perhaps temporarily.



The REASON for creation and human life is so that we were created and made in the image of God - that is - with spiritual, and creative senses and abilities including an awareness of right and wrong, so that we may appreciate our wonderful environment and make a relationship with its Creator through Jesus Christ whose Spirit is able to awaken hidden spiritual awareness in us, to become reconciled to God in order to become wonderfully aware of God's Love and Glory and rejoice in it!.



When we are spiritually fully awake we know that spiritual Truth is eternal and constant whereas physical things are changing and one day will perish.
anonymous
2017-09-08 15:29:02 UTC
I am not sure...
?
2017-09-08 04:54:44 UTC
Yes the universe has a cause.

1 yes

2 yes

3 yes



Even if you go by the Big Bang as the origin of life something had to cause it to begin with. Even if you believe that the first atoms to form somehow split to become the first life (which I do not of course) it had to have a cause to begin with. God is not required to have a cause or beginning because God exists outside of time. Nor is it rational to believe that the Creator would have to have a Creator himself. The argument that matter has always existed therefore the universe has always existed also does not hold water because the matter that God used to form the universe simply was not formed into the universe yet. I also find it interesting that atheists believe this and yet believe we become nothing when we die.
Kazoo M
2017-09-08 04:48:08 UTC
The Universe is a great mystery - one we will never resolve.



Sadly, our Government system will fund billions of dollars (tax payers money) to built larger and larger telescopes.

When the white elephant is complete our scientists view space a little more further than the last white elephant.

Furthermore, the latter is a perpetual cycle of careless dollars thrown away when the money should have been used to feed, cloth and house the homeless.

Additionally, the tax payers money could have also been used to pay for completely free "quality" health care.

I believe the above is an evil crime that is very tiring to view.
Ebony
2017-09-08 00:50:53 UTC
Creation and expansion
anonymous
2017-09-07 22:33:11 UTC
The Laws of Physics suggest that the Universe has always existed. Back in the Dark Ages when I took Physics in High School the wording went something like this: Matter and Energy cannot be created or destroyed, They can only be converted from one to the other. You get conformation on this idea from the Big Bang Theory. For some reason I always asked what exploded. Part or all of the Universe exploded but the Universe existed before, during, and after that.
?
2017-09-07 21:29:57 UTC
The universe causes itself to exist. It is a cyclical event.
Jim V
2017-09-07 20:53:09 UTC
Each premise is sound.



The argument that the universe is (or can be) eternal has been long ago put to bed ... both scientifically and philosophically.



Thus a cause is required.

Such cause then must be transcendent of the effect ... the universe.

Does that "prove God" ? ... no, not entirely.

It only points to one attribute of God ... and it points out that the totality of reality is not within the temporal realm of the universe.
The Book of David
2017-09-07 20:50:29 UTC
Kalam does not demonstrate that god does not begin to exist, or have a cause. It does not even mention god at all. Even if its premises, which are assumptions without supporting evidence, are true, the most it can prove is that the universe has a cause. It tells us nothing about what that cause is.
anonymous
2017-09-07 20:43:28 UTC
It never mentions god.
Grinning Football plinny younger
2017-09-10 15:35:17 UTC
A cause, is different to a maker - yes but what it was, is cause for scientific debate.
?
2017-09-10 08:15:42 UTC
Yes. God. BWAAAAAAHAAHHHAHAHAA!!!!! We don't know. We will never know. It doesn't matter. Just be good and kind and happy and soon we will die.
anonymous
2017-09-09 21:53:01 UTC
So, the universe in it's present form had a beginning. It's rather like you had a beginning, but the components that became you where already there. There is now mathematical support for the big bang being the result of quantum field fluctuation. So how many other universes are the result of such and how long has that been going on? Find the answer to that then get back to me.
anonymous
2017-09-09 16:41:47 UTC
gravity.
Bolton
2017-09-09 15:24:45 UTC
God is the king of the universe
numlock
2017-09-09 01:08:38 UTC
invisible magic people aren't real....
anonymous
2017-09-08 22:47:16 UTC
If there was nothing then a big bang so large that the energy couldn't move quick enough to get out of the way of the energy behind it, it may have turned to matter. What if the big bang actually took place in another dimension. A bang so enormous it split the very fabric of time and space. Where there is now matter, planets, stars, meteors there would have been nothing. I'm starting to babble now. I know what I'm trying to say but I had a long day. Time for bed.
Deandre
2017-09-08 21:05:13 UTC
God is d cause of everything. Why you think you question him so much? Coincidence?
?
2017-09-08 05:17:53 UTC
There is no evidence that the universe had a beginning.



The universe was a singularity, no space-time. space-time began and the universe underwent a state change.

At no time did the universe not exist. so it always existed. hence we have no need to explain its 'beginning'.
anonymous
2017-09-08 00:48:43 UTC
God is the ultimate cause.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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