Question:
Evidence of god without the use of the bible?
hugo61oi3
2017-01-07 05:24:32 UTC
all you christians say is "because the bible says" or "if you cant disprove it then its real" or "evolution THEORY is is not observant therefor god made us in 6 days"

any LOGICAL and SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that jesus or whatever god you believe is right?

NOTE* faith does not count since it is diferent betwen people example: when i was 16 i had a feeling that everything was made by something or someone this feeling was completly debunked while making a logical investigation through both sides skeptical and believer, this feeling still was there but i consciously made myself beliefe that this is not true and i dont feel anything.

Your unexplained experiences dont count if you dont have proof, like a court case, a person is either guilty or not guilty, it doesnt work if he really did it, they just show proofs from both sides and tell if its true.

i would like short get to the poit honest answear (im an atheists)

thanks for reading
102 answers:
2017-01-09 12:27:57 UTC
Evidence of god without the use of the bible?...is not impossible for YOU are there to tell the story.



Life has neither meaning nor purpose except merely "being" and to live consciously in the awareness of that reality



Mother earth gave birth to us.Father Sun give light to see the beauty of our mother.

And You and Me created some stories.Hmm. It is about Competition. This is my entry, the TRUTH.Just close your eyes.

You will see a black background, that is the beginning and there are red balls passing around, those are the heat and become the stars.

If holy spirit is in you, You will see it. Heat is the beginning and the end. Where heat come from?

It come from energy. God = negative and positive. Positive alone can not create power, without power no energy, without energy no heat, without heat no life.

Life on earth is only story so is the universe. It is also easy to predict the future,

it will be hotter and hotter and more disaster to come more unpredictable weathers it will be more difficult to control

the food supply because of drought and there will be a big war.

We are going to be place on test by our Father because you let Jesus suffer more. Who is Jesus? It is You. You alone is God.

Please create an advance story and move your ***, if you want to solve the problem. Anyway the end of the universe will be white 100%, everyone is going to see it.

*God created the universe by word and so the stories.Heat from the head and heat from the heart. That is what really matter most.

The question is this, are we 1 or 0? (^-^) Note: Big Bang, string, finger print,dark matter, wave and vibration effect theory will not occur without Heat.

In every story there is beginning and an end, right and wrong play a big roll on it.🙌🏼
?
2017-01-10 17:35:41 UTC
Look at the way the planets orbit around the sun they never colide with each other or the sun because the sun gravitational pull keeps them in their orbit. The earth is just the right distance from the sun, if it were a little closer earth would burn up, a little further away earth would freeze. The earth is tilted at a 25 degree angle which allows the seasons to change year after year. Animals are instinctively wise. Look ar the way our bodies are wonderfully made. We do not need to see in color or have taste buds, these gifts are evident of a wise and loving creator. There is so much evidence of a creator without using the bible. I only touched on it but when you really examine all the evidence, it is reasonable to see that it is all the product of a living, intelligent, loving creator! Please visit jw.org to learn more.
?
2017-01-07 05:56:35 UTC
In which category would you like your evidence of God? Scientific? Historical? Archaeological? Supernatural? Miraculous? Metaphysical? I have posted evidence of God in all of these categories, but rather than dispute the evidence given atheists have preferred to block me, insult me or say that there is no evidence. It is not just a blind man who cannot see. It is also the one who insists on wearing a blindfold.



I do not hide my questions and answers as many on this board do. You can find what I posted there.



Edit: It is ironic that I once posted a challenge to atheists to post any evidence that God did not exist without using the Bible. If I remember correctly I had 20+ replies but only one was able to post a logical bit of evidence. In all the time here I have heard only two logical arguments against the existence of God - the fact that God is not visible to all, and the existence of evil, pain and suffering. Both of these I have rebutted logically and completely. Yet to all the evidence I have posted for the existence of God there have been extremely few logical replies. Why is that?
Damien
2017-01-08 06:57:11 UTC
Well, being someone who doesn't really see either way, you can't really prove either.

So, in one regard, the notion of a God creating how things are vs. things just being how they are can just be a choice of whether you want it simple or one step more. Both bring about different complications. So, to most atheists, I'd think, they go with the idea that if you can't prove, you might as well not believe in it, even if you can't disprove it. Real or not, the ideas of a God are the perfect thing to never have observable proof or anything that'd negate it completely. Our ideologies, experiences, and where we have faith (religion, science and observation, reason, emotion, etc.) is something interesting. Think about how you came to be or come to accept your place in logic and evidence. What might make someone innately see differently or come to believe something. Also, did you always have a sense for what you do now, or have you simply denied a truth in feeling? Or have you simply decided of two different instincts which you believe in?

Fun.
ron
2017-01-08 17:17:26 UTC
Evidence of god without the use of the bible?

The biggest problem I see with your argument is that you are expecting Christians who believe in the Bible to not use the Bible for evidence. Ofcourse there is more than enough besides that but you can most certainly expect that we will use that as part of it. The evidence is there for you to see. if you don't take it then that is not our fault. That is your choice
travelingwithwife
2017-01-07 14:27:09 UTC
If God were to tell you what was going to happen 2000 years in advance and then it happened---would you say that God is real or would you come up with something like "it was a coincidence".



God predicted many things in advance and they came true.



The most recent and very significant prophecy fulfillment is of these words:

“The bricks have fallen down,

but we will rebuild with dressed stone;

the fig trees have been felled,

but we will replace them with cedars.”



One fulfilled prophecy that was recently fulfilled was the Isaiah 9:10 prophecy that the best-selling book the Harbinger was about.

This prophecy was fulfilled by Tom Daschle and John Edwards after the 9/11 attack.



Go to you-tube and see the videos of the speeches.

https://youtu.be/ur2S-ajcljY



Watch the video (it goes slow) and see that the prophecy was fulfilled perfectly and that God knows the end from the beginning.



Leave a comment and I'll try to get back to in the future.
Tim
2017-01-07 06:27:27 UTC
I believe in a young world whereas you probably believe in a very old world stretching back millions, perhaps even billions of years. As young as I believe the earth is I find it a miracle that all life has not been destroyed on this planet by some astronomical event and you should find it even a greater miracle considering the greater length of time you believe there has been a risk to this.



For years scientists have used SETI searching the skies for an intelligent signal. Some scientists investigated the DNA code looking for the same intelligent signals and found them. They published their findings in the scientific journal Icarus (Volume 224, Issue 1, May 2013, Pages 228–242)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103513000791



You may say that doesn't mean that God did it but that perhaps aliens seeded the earth. From where then did the aliens come? Science has shown that life cannot be spontaneously generated and even the smart atheist scientists go about trying to create life not by creating the conditions in which they supposedly believe

life arouse naturally but through artificial and intelligent means such as synthesizing DNA.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X3oDMTFiaHBhMnJmBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2hhc3Q-?p=craig+venter+vs+intelligent+design&fr=yfp-t-s&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8



Scientists are doing all kinds of work with DNA.

DNA is Blueprint, Contractor and Construction Worker for New Structures

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2008/01/dnamirkin.html



By changing the type of DNA on the surface of the particles, the Northwestern team can get the particles to arrange differently in space. The structures that finally form are the ones that maximize DNA hybridization. DNA is the stabilizing force, the glue that holds the structure together. "These structures are a new form of matter," said Mirkin, "that would be difficult, if not impossible, to make any other way."



He likens the process to building a house. Starting with basic materials such as bricks, wood, siding, stone and shingles, a construction team can build many different types of houses out of the same building blocks. In the Northwestern work, the DNA controls where the building blocks (the gold nanoparticles) are positioned in the final crystal structure, arranging the particles in a functional way. The DNA does all the heavy lifting so the researchers don't have to.



Mirkin, Schatz and their team just used one building block, gold spheres, but as the method is further developed, a multitude of building blocks of different sizes can be used -- with different composition (gold, silver and fluorescent particles, for example) and different shapes (spheres, rods, cubes and triangles). Controlling the distance between the nanoparticles is also key to the structure's function.



"Once you get good at this you can build anything you want," said Mirkin, director of Northwestern's International Institute for Nanotechnology.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







Clearly DNA is the product of an intelligent mind and not the chaotic forces of nature. Therefore we know that God is more than stone or wood but is a living and intelligent being--indeed the Supreme Being.



Now go ahead and look at all the holy books in the world. See which one tells the future before it happens and which is correct. See in the Bible how God told the nation of Israel everything that would happen to it throughout history before any of this history was made.
JORGE N
2017-01-07 05:38:39 UTC
I never had much doubt God exists. Still don't. Although what I think about God is of yet no more important than the sound of a fly on the other side of the world is to me right now. At least that is what I thought before I read the Bible or any religious material for that matter. Now I think God is interested in us precisely in ways that are developmentally forward in an evolutionary positive manner. For me, God was already here. But not for me. Now I think differently.
Joshua
2017-01-07 22:32:51 UTC
There is absolutely none. Using the Bible as evidence for God and Jesus Christ's existence would be the same as a child using a Christmas coloring book as proof of Santa Clause and his sled pulled by reindeer. You could even argue "chamber of secrets" is proof of Harry Potter and all of his friends at Hogwarts.

The Bible is not evidence of anything. Without proof, the Bible is just a story, most of which written decades or even several decades after events it "documents (it doesn't quite document anything, sorry Ken Ham)."
bob7777
2017-01-07 06:17:58 UTC
Evidence of a creator? Look around you at all creation. The evidence is perceived. Note this Bible verse

"what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship." Romans 1:19, 20



Since God has no peers there is no possibility of a peer review paper. Today most refuse to accept evidence of their own eyes, Evidence of their own math. Evidence of their own theories. And when they cannot explain their findings in any way except special creation, the debunk it. Why? Because creation is UNTHINKABLE.



More real science at jw.org
pygonza
2017-01-09 06:26:26 UTC
A lack of evidence that God exists, is not evidence that the opposite is true. A person saying they are an atheist due to a lack of evidence, is being illogical and irrational, because they should be undecided. But an atheist has decided there is no God, when there is no evidence for that belief. This supports the position that a lack of evidence has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is an emotional decision that a person makes and uses their intellect to try to support and defend it. If it were rational, they would be agnostics, not atheists. This explains why so many atheists don't recognize, near death experiences, and born again experiences of people seeing God, as evidence. Atheists don't see the Bible as evidence, medical miracles as evidence, reports of religious visions, or prophetic dreams, as evidence. They have already made up their minds there is no God, for emotional reasons, and their rationale that there is no evidence, stands, no matter what evidence is presented. All the evidence does not count, for some reason or another.





Anything with a beginning has a cause, and the universe has a beginning. This has been shown by astrophysics, therefore, the existence of a Big Bang is evidence that there is a God, because there had to be something to cause the Big Bang to occur. God does not have a beginning because he is an eternal being that exists outside of time and space. In the first moments of the Big Bang, energy, space, time, and matter came into existence. God, on the other hand, is an eternal being, and the creator of time, space, matter, and energy. God does not, and cannot, have a creator, because God is "before" time itself. Since God created time, there cannot be anything "before" God.





The order, complexity and stability of the universe infers a grand design. If every house has a builder, certainly something as complex and ordered as the physical universe has a builder. The order, stability, and complexity of the universe is evidence of an intelligent design, and therefore, God.





Life cannot come from non-living matter. The existence of life necessitates an eternal living God to create life, so is evidence that God exists. Amino acids don't just fall together to form complex chains and proteins. Proteins don't just fall together with fatty acids to form cell walls. Life is far too complex to happen by itself. It would be like saying falling paint over a billion years could result in the Mona Lisa. Art necessitates an artist, and the universe and life, necessitate God.





Too many weird things happen for there not to be a God. Not just documented miracles, but bizarre coincidences that should never happen. This is evidence for a purpose behind seemingly random events. God is the origin of the design and purpose of human life in the universe. The apparent intelligent design of the universe is evidence that God exists. There appears to be intrinsic meaning and purpose in life. That life has meaning and purpose is evidence of God.





Concepts come from our experiences. Human beings should not have the concept of a perfect, pure, eternal, omnipotent being, yet over 85% of the human race does. Since everything we know and conceive is derived from our experience, the existence of the God concept is evidence that some such being actually exists. This is not just idealization, conceiving of the greatest of all, or a combination of existing forms. God is outside the box, in the sense of not just the oldest or the first, but eternal, outside the time space continuum, perfect and pure. Either God exists or the question would be absurd. The question of God is not absurd, therefore God exists.





The fact that the vast majority of human beings believe they can communicate with such a being and that being can communicate with them, is evidence that something exists. Billions of people, the vast majority of the human race, the most intelligent species on the planet, testify to having a direct, supernatural, experience, in one form or another, with the divine. This eye-witness testimony is evidence that such a being exists.





The only thing left to speculate on is which version or concept of God is the correct one. Since God is beyond the physical universe, it stands to reason that none of the human versions are 100% accurate. So this leaves us only to wonder which religion is the closest to the truth.
?
2017-01-08 14:53:59 UTC
Jabal Al Laws in Saudi Arabia, The Exodus stones. The Sandals stones all over The Middle East, that show a pictograph of The 10 Commandments, Joesph's statues in Egypt, Esther's name as The Favorite Wife & Queen in Iraq, The destroyed ruins of Sodom, Gammorah, Zorah, around it, Noah's Ark on Mt. Arrate, and an altar with pictographs of animals in Southwestern Turkey 560 miles away that his son created. Bethlaham, Capernum, Nazareth, Lake Galiee, and Jerusalem.
BJ
2017-01-07 05:28:11 UTC
Justin Martyr, writing in the middle of the second century, wrote in reference to the death of Jesus: “That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.” In addition, according to Justin Martyr, these same records mentioned Jesus’ miracles.



Although secular accounts say little about the nature of Jesus’ death, respected Roman historian Tacitus, born about 55 C.E., wrote that Christus, from whom the name Christians had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.



Tacitus’ words fully harmonize with the Gospel accounts, which also mention Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate, and other officials.



Is the life story of the founder of Christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope a myth?



historian Will Durant. answers that in the first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.



Historian Durant draws the conclusion: That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.



And there are other Historians that could be listed, but the answer would be to long.
?
2017-01-07 13:31:24 UTC
For those who don't believe,like yourself, no proof or evidence of God from any source is possible pet. The wonderful truths of salvation and forgiveness—eternal life in heaven and God’s guidance and provision on Earth—are easily understood by the simplest among us, even by little children, even though they often seem difficult for those who are perishing like yourself, to comprehend. God's Word says that 'all have sinned' and if you can honestly say that you do not sin, then God doesn't exist for you. Have you got a problem with that pet?
User
2017-01-07 13:22:25 UTC
There's loads apart from the Bible, of course...

Look for any written record of a testimony of experiencing God over the last 2,000 years, or any testimony from someone you know. There are undoubtedly thousands of such.





I add that it's not really reasonable to exclude the Bible.

Consider Hannibal of Carthage who invaded Rome. His burial place is unknown - no body. No image of him is known to exist. No architectural work (e.g. a monument) built by him is known, no work of literature, etc.

Until recently, the ONLY evidence we had of his existence was recorded testimony (and still that is the only really GOOD evidence we have, the only evidence that mentions his name and describes his activities. The recently-discovered evidence, though quite solid, is both circumstantial and only tangentially related to Hannibal personally.).



Now: imagine some committee in the distant past - say, the 4th century C.E. - examines all of the contemporary and near-contemporary accounts of Hannibal, collects those believed to be authentic and/or reliable, translates them into a single language and combines them into a single book called "The Big Book of Hannibal".



Then 1,600 years later someone asks you,

"Do you have any evidence of Hannibal without using The Big Book of Hannibal?"



The Bible is *in a sense* the collection of all of the believed-to-be-authentic accounts of the Biblical God (believed at the end of the 4th century). (Note that I say "in a sense" because the Bible uses a higher bar, not just written accounts of God but documents believed to be inspired by God.)



Isn't it kind of silly - no matter WHAT the situation - to ask, "Apart from this collection of all of the best, most well-authenticated evidence for X, what evidence do you have for X?"
2017-01-07 10:30:30 UTC
Evidence proves a point, but only if you accept the efficacy of the evidence. Take a murder trial, one jury might find the evidence proves the guilt of the accused, whereas a different jury might decide that the same evidence doesn't. Christians often say that nature itself is proof of creation, they believe it to be, whereas others don't.



Atheists will say that God doesn't exist, or that he isn't real (they appear to disagree on this point), but the way I see it is, asking for proof that God exists, surely indicates they doubt their own belief, whereas Christians do not have that doubt.
Douglas
2017-01-07 05:59:15 UTC
The notion that there is a such thing as a bible is ridiculous in the first place but I guess that's another topic entirely. Anyway a "true" Christian which technically doesnt exist in todays time does not believe that God is a physical entity but a representation of what is called love. The emotion that humans feel from the moment our minds perceive existince in one another, which is "God". But you must also take into account that the "bible" or the conglomeration of religious writings or texts has to be present in mind for such a God to be percieved because it is what the ideas on which your question is based. Paul's teachings= love thy neighbor= good life. No God is put into the picture only love. A foundation in which to live upon to have a descent life. But if you wish me to answer your question and take none of what I just said into account "no bible"-"existince of god" a one true entity that created existince I wold try but not enough space.
2017-01-07 17:58:25 UTC
SHUT YOUR FACE ... It's not what "all you christians say" at all .. you clown.



YOU have NEVER MET ALL CHRISTIANS .. and probably don't know many

at all ~ let alone you woud not have the mental capacity to have a sensible

discussion if you did happen to talk to a Christian.



Now regarding that "evidence" ~ Nobody owes you anything that's not yours.

I have the evidence I need for MY faith .. You are outside of the picture.



When my friend's elderly grandmother was dying of stomach cancer, we went

to visit her in hospital and I told her we could pray and ask the Lord to remove

the tumour. She was keen to do that, so we prayed .. I Iaid hands on the part

of her stomach where the cancer was, and I bound it in the name of Jesus ..

asking God to take it away and restore her health. He did. She was discharged

the same week, and lived another 8 years into her eighties. God healed her.



I have all kinds of experiences that demonstrate the presence & power of God,

and it makes not a scrap of difference how much you rave on about it or not.
?
2017-01-07 05:29:03 UTC
the origin of the universe and life is proof of God, and historical evidence is proof Jesus existed, more evidence for Jesus than many ancient figures Atheists take for granted. whether or not you want to believe Jesus created the universe and life or Allah or Zeus did, that's up to you, but to remain Atheists is utterly foolish.



Atheists are without excuse.

There are things about God that people cannot see - His eternal power and all that makes Him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear by what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do. -Romans 1:20
?
2017-01-07 16:14:54 UTC
The evidence is overwhelming, consider one interesting fact.



Perfect Recycling!

Humans, with all their advanced technology, create countless tons of unrecyclable toxic waste annually. Yet, the earth recycles all its wastes perfectly, using ingenious chemical engineering.



How do you think the earth’s recycling systems arose? “If the Earth’s ecosystem had truly evolved by chance alone, it wouldn’t possibly have been able to reach such a perfect level of environmental harmony,” says religion and science writer M. A. Corey. Do you agree with his conclusion?



For much more evidence to support creation ask any of Jehovah's Witnesses for a free copy of the brochure, Was Life Created?, or visit JW.org for a downloadable copy.
mark
2017-01-08 21:15:57 UTC
Really? What are we supposed to use then? Nature? Ok. You don't believe that either so then what? The testimony of Christians? You don't believe that either. What proof exactly do you want? If you don't believe what in the world makes you think you would believe then (which he will do by the way)?

Even after that the Bible says they still will not believe. So I honestly don't believe the vast majority would turn away from sin and follow God even if they saw him
sleepydad
2017-01-08 19:09:42 UTC
As we know and understand and gather data scientifically there is no verifiable/tangible proof or evidence of God. That isn't to say that it won't someday be discovered. The beauty of science is that change is a constant factor based on new data and our understanding of it- And that also isn't to say there aren't many reputable scientists who have personal faith in their lives and believe in God. But as of now based on human beings limited understanding about the universe we do not have "evidence" for God. I'm a Christian and I fully acknowledge this reality. I am not so insecure in my faith that I need to come up with arguments proving something I can't prove. Have I had deep experiences in my own life that have pointed me to belief in a loving compassionate God that I take on faith even though I have no way to verify or prove it to be true other than based on my own experiences? Yes I have. And those experiences are 100 percent real to me. I hope that you end up having an experience of love that is so profound and real that you have no way to confirm it to anyone else, but you know in your heart that God is a reality. I pray that this happens in your life and you are flooded with total peace about it. I understand why you think I'm wrong and I'm sorry that I have no way to prove it to you through equations or testable theories that have been verified in studies. I would offer things like "love" and looking at creation as tangible things that point to something beyond ourselves.. But you'd probably find fault with that and again I can't blame you for that. I just don't think human logic is up to the task of explaining away God just because science hasn't found God yet. That's because science is an ever changing thing... Some genius comes along every few generations that tilts it on its head. Who's to say that won't happen someday and suddenly the notion of God becomes very real? You have to acknowledge that this is at least a possibility. There is some evidence for the authenticity of the stories in the Bible based on history.. But some of this gets dicey. And there are differing opinions among scholars regarding a lot of it... I myself as a Christian have questions about a lot of things in scripture. I really believe it is a thing that you take on faith or not at all.
Anthony B
2017-01-08 19:22:55 UTC
In a Supreme Court action, if criminal or civil, one side does not have the right and privilege to enter court and request that the other side simply toss out it's evidence which forms the bases for their case. Even if the one side has no faith or belief in that evidence, unless they have substantial prove that the evidence is inadmissible.

Atheists...they like to start with...throw out YOUR evidence....

The Evidence....The Bible....

Contains many SWORN witness statements.

The witnesses identified themselves accurately giving names. address, and even family contact information.

There is SWORN Testimony of events so witnessed and written, and signed to. Persons who were there at the time saw and experienced the event and wrote about it. And took an OATH to it.



Now you pot smoking head banging deniers of the truth, want us to throw out the word of good honest decent men to satisfy your indecent cravings for arguments against a God who you run from, but should run to.
thomas_tutoring2002
2017-01-07 13:50:19 UTC
YOUR ARGUMENT IS ANSWERED IN TRUTHS OF THE AMAZING BIBLE! Note please what is powerfully said of the masterpiece of "masterpieces" No Bible text but powerfully stated ideas:



*** w88 2/1 p. 4 Who Wrote the Bible? ***



“What a grand book! Stranger than its contents for me is its manner of expression, where the word becomes virtually a natural product like a tree, like a flower, like the sea, like the stars, like man himself. It sprouts, it flows, it shines, it laughs, one knows not how, one knows not why, one finds everything so completely natural. It is truly God’s Word, in contrast to other books that testify of only human wisdom.”—The 19th-century German poet and journalist Heinrich Heine’s comments about the Bible.



*** jd chap. 1 p. 5 par. 3 Jehovah’s Messages for Then and Now ***

. English author Charles Dickens noted about the Bible: “It is the best book that ever was or will be known in the world . . . because it teaches you the best lessons by which any human creature . . . can possibly be guided"



Simply stated above, but if you find any thing that comes about matching its powers, wisdom, ,ideas & truths with no valid contradictions & you reject it! Then there is nothing more to say. except you go on with you ideas. & reject the principles that are given the Bible alone!



more....
Doubting Like Thomas
2017-01-07 17:13:17 UTC
Are you the same one who asked this yesterday?

If not, here's yesterday's answer.

...............................................

Evidence of the God known as Poseidon, without use of the Bible, is as follows:

1. He uses his divine POWER to move the tides, EVERY ocean EVERY day.

2. He does this, whether we Believe in him, or do NOT Believe in Him.

3. the tides are regular, and measurable (unlike the "miracles" allegedly done by other Gods.)

4. No Believers in any other Gods are willing to challenge the POWER of the God known as Poseidon, by anchoring themselves to the seabed at LOW tide, and trusting their God will protect and preserve them, as Poseidon brings in the HIGH tide!



Too bad we're not allowed to use the Bible, because if we WERE, which God do you think was doing a favor for a friend, when Jesus walked on water?

Right!

Posedion was helping His pal Yahweh, whose kid was trying to impress a bunch of guys.

So, Yahweh's pal, Jesus' "Uncle Poz" was under there, supporting the kid, with His invisible hands.

.......................................

But, if so, Pheel Phree to Phuck Ophph!
2017-01-16 09:12:45 UTC
justin martyr, writing in the middle of the second century, wrote in reference to the death of jesus: “that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the acts of pontius pilate...” in addition, according to justin martyr, these same records mentioned jesus’ miracles...



although secular accounts say little about the nature of jesus’ death, respected roman historian tacitus, born about 55 c...e..., wrote that christus, from whom the name christians had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, pontius pilatus...



tacitus’ words fully harmonize with the gospel accounts, which also mention tiberius caesar, pontius pilate, and other officials...



is the life story of the founder of christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope a myth?



historian shall durant... answers that in the first century, to deny that christ had ever existed seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or jewish opponents of nascent christianity...



historian durant draws the conclusion: that a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the gospels...



and there are other historians that could be listed, but the answer would be to long...
WOOWHO
2017-01-08 12:34:04 UTC
Evidence of "God" without the use of the Bible ? , so one is asking for evidence of god , , so let us start with what is a god ? actually its a 3 letter word that represents an IDEA, notion a Concept ,



Concepts are the product of Human thought ,,, My dog does not present me with concept , nor a tiger a bear or elephant . other humans do so the three letters represent an IDEA , not only in specifically the Bible , But also writings and STORIES of many ancient cultures and also more recent writings and oral stories of groups



How do human use the word basically to represent an IDEA associated with the EXPLANATION of origin of life , or use as legitimacy of POWER to RULE , the AUTHORITY over societies . Pharaohs viewed themselves as gods , Kings are said to have the legitimacy to Rule because they were ENDOWED by a god ,, even in the coronation of the queen of en gland the term ENDOWED by God is used . ..



...I will give my simplistic example . god is a word in human language about an IDEA , people promote .... so you have a New born human , its parents teach it language , the mother holds up a Ball , and says BALL BALL , points to a Rock says rock rock , a Tree and says Tree tree ... and some people hold up a BOOK and say GOD GOD ..so a child walks out the front door they will find grass trees rocks mountains rivers lakes , what must a parent do to tell them about this IDEA of GOD ,,,, stories written by men and one might hold up the Quran , Bible Torah Hindu scriptures , the book of Mormons and point to it and say GOD GOD , and they all contain stories ,



one can also read the Egyptian book of the dead , expressing IDEAS of many gods and IDEAS of afterlife , or other books with IDEAS of HELL IDEAS of Satan IDEAS of HEAVEN , is any of it DEMONSTRATED , Confirmed ? That which is not CONFIRMED is by definition an IDEA and remain so ,



Numbers are also CONCEPTS you take a symbol or word to represent an IDEA ONE ( 1 ) we teach it as in One Ball the Ball is real the Concept is the word ONE represents quality a unit of measure to empress the IDEA , early math had difficulty because one had to introduce the IDEA of NONE or ZERO not until 650 AD the term was SUNYA "EMPTY " by Brahmagupta who formalized arithmetic ,



,, the question i present and ask Theist in simplicity to help Highlight that the word god is a CONCEPT an idea a notion ,,,,,,a product of Human thought and the IDEA is maintained and dependent on Humans promoting it , If One stop asserting the IDEA , will the GOD show up to COMPLAIN ? did Thor Zeus or any other god idea of culture of the past ?



So when a Theist child has their first trip to the Library do they think to themselves WOW this BUILDING has lots of GODS in it . ? so look out the window the rock exist a tree water and people animals

. EXIST that which persist independent of your presence .. Where is the INDEPENDENT SELF EVIDENT GOD ? I can show you a independent self evident tree , ythe best example of a parent trying to teach a CONCEPT to a Child is a YOU TUBE video a Christian mother trying to Convince a 2 year old of a JESUS She repeats Jesus loves you do you love JESUS , the child replies NO MOMMY NO " CHEESE ITS ." frustrated and pointing to the kitchen cabinet where the Cheese crackers are kept " Up there I love "CHEESE ITS"



... When you are the INVENTOR of your own Stories ,

You become the MASTER of what it SAYS ,



especially when your not held to confirming what one asserts,

ends up as BECAUSE I SAID SO
?
2017-01-08 14:35:09 UTC
Look at creation and look at yourself. Take a simple tree for example. It gives off oxygen which we need and we give off carbon dioxide which the tree needs. Did that happen by chance of was it designed by a Creator? When you look at an ant and it's ability to carry stuff heavier than its own weight...did it happen just by chance? If the Earth was one percent closer to the sun, we'd burn to death. If it was one percent further from the sun, we'd freeze to death. Did it just happen to land in the right place or was it created? Look at yourself. The ability the human body has to fight off disease, think and process thoughts, to communicate with one another, to reproduce, to create intricate things, to have a heart that produces blood to all the body, and to have emotions and feelings, and more. Did all that happen by chance? Personally, I don't think so. Yes, the Bible says it, but if you look around you can see proof of God's existence.
Joseph
2017-01-08 14:17:11 UTC
Simple logical equations points out to the fact that any kind of reasoning presented by us is flawed!

For example should one state that like 'here and now' cannot ever be equated by 'now and here'.

So knowing that we are all working upon a 'platform' it is evident that a Creator is our stable rock upon which we all rest.
Otto
2017-01-08 11:15:39 UTC
A member of the French Academy of Sciences stated: "Natural order was not invented by the human mind or set up by certain perceptive powers . . . . The existence of order presupposes the existens of organizing intelligence. Such inteligence can be none other than God's." - Dieu existe? Oui, p. 94.
alex
2017-01-08 22:46:33 UTC
It is possible that God can be united with science (God is the creator so initiated it and left it to evolve as it is). It is difficult to understand the origin of the universe scientifically and spiritually. We have limited resources and so I prefer to not decide on the lack of evidence I have for either.
Ashley
2017-01-11 22:21:46 UTC
justin martyr, writing in the middle of the second century, wrote in reference to the death of jesus: “that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the acts of pontius pilate...” in addition, according to justin martyr, these same records mentioned jesus’ miracles...



although secular accounts say little about the nature of jesus’ death, respected roman historian tacitus, born about 55 c...e..., wrote that christus, from whom the name christians had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, pontius pilatus...



tacitus’ words fully harmonize with the gospel accounts, which also mention tiberius caesar, pontius pilate, and other officials...



is the life story of the founder of christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope a myth?



historian shall durant... answers that in the first century, to deny that christ had ever existed seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or jewish opponents of nascent christianity...



historian durant draws the conclusion: that a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the gospels...



and there are other historians that could be listed, but the answer would be to long...
Coop 366
2017-01-07 21:01:38 UTC
Evolution is man's attempt to explain how everything come to be but can it be shown to be real? As the theory is today is not how it started but with new findings they up date it or correct what is not right. According to evolution it is divided into six ages or time periods, does that not sound familiar but I am not to go to the Bible. Man did show up until the sixth age, again? We came from one female, again.

Why with two points of views that they run so similar?
Pixel
2017-01-09 02:35:36 UTC
Religion is not based off of data or evidence it's based off of emotion. The amount of evidence that suggests gods are real is 100% equivalent to the evidence that suggests fairy god mothers are real.
Raja
2017-01-09 09:12:21 UTC
You are living in a temporary miraculous era of God. The people who born in this era are thinking that this is natural and normal. In fact it's not true. I myself a living evidence for the existence of God.
Tracie
2017-01-09 01:27:34 UTC
Notice the galaxy, how everything is in perfect balance. Galaxies consist of millions of stars, all moving in space in an orderly way. Planets in our solar system travel in orbits around the sun as though they were humbly obeying traffic laws. The sun and moon are perfectly placed. Also, notice the human body. The process of healing and birth. These things couldnt have happened by chance.
2017-01-08 08:00:13 UTC
We don't need "evidence" because we just simply BELIEVE because it is called a FAITH.



I know he exists because he has answered a few of my prayers. But this is just my own opinion, I'm not going to force my faith onto others nor judge an atheist or an agnostic because they just don't like Christians or don't believe God exists because that would make just as bad and a hypocrite.
2017-01-08 00:10:40 UTC
The Bible isn't evidence of anything at all.
2017-01-07 13:43:00 UTC
yes. Evidence of God without using Bible. Entire universe is evidence of all powerful being. Law, order, specificity, existence and sustaining of celestial bodies, water cycle, moon cycle, location, location location, (is that a word), planet earth perfect to support terrestrial life, universal laws and fidelity to them, all this points to powerful and intelligent source.
?
2017-01-09 06:05:29 UTC
People who believe will always have some sort of whacky answer but I say, what's the point of proving or disproving the existance of god. If you believe then you believe and if you don't then you don't. I have friends who are christian and others like myself who are atheist. We all get along just fine. Religion never comes up in conversation. I respect their beliefs and they respect mine. What we all don't do is push our beliefs on others. Now if everyone did that we'd all be better off.
Al
2017-01-07 15:11:34 UTC
In the March 2003 issue of the journal, Scientific American, stated: “Of all the body coverings nature has designed, feathers are the most various and the most mysterious.” Note that scientists admit that there is evidence of design in nature. However, science also says that design requires intelligence.



A blind man once said “Vision isn’t in the eyes, It’s in the mind.” So you can use your physical senses to examine the world around you and to perceive the unseen God who created it. The book of creation or nature reveals so much evidence of design. You must ask yourself since there is design who designed it?



1) If there is design, there must be a designer. (Science 101)



-> To get more complex, in Darwin’s book he said that if any part of biology requiring several parts in which the biological organism could not exist without any one component, hence all the parts needing to evolve at the exact same moment, then then the theory of evolution would not be possible.



There are body parts, creatures and even bacteria that that based on all their parts would not be possible to exist today unless the individual parts all came together at the same instance.



2) Existence of complex biological machines require a scientist or engineer to put them together. (Darwin, Science 101)



You can learn about God from what you see in the physical universe. That evidence of an intelligent designer is all around us. It is not hidden in nature but is “clearly seen” in nature. From the largest to the smallest, creation clearly reveals not only that there is a designer but also that he has wonderful qualities. However, you may have to look closely with an open mind.



Read this article of David Loos who, like you did not believe in God as the cause for life.



https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201310/davey-loos-science-researcher-explains-faith/



Intelligent design so obvious in nature it reveal to God’s wisdom, his power his sense of humour and his love for mankind? Earth is uniquely designed for us not merely to exist but to enjoy life. The starry heavens and the pounding surf reveal his power? The variety of foods that delight our palate and the beauty of sunrises and sunsets reveal his love for mankind?—Psalm 104:24; Isaiah 40:26.



For more views from scientist who believe in a creator use this link.



https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Explains+Faith



:)
?
2017-01-09 04:22:06 UTC
Creation itself gives me proof that no human or big bang theory explains how we came to be and the organization that exists between planets and stars in the galaxy that run in perfect order. The sun and moon both powerful and yet we are able to benefit from them although they be so far away! More examples come to mind but I say having faith in God requires prayer and logic.
laidawestbrook2
2017-01-08 13:19:48 UTC
Galaxies consist of millions of stars, all moving in space in an orderly way. Why, planets in our solar system travel in orbits around the sun as though they were humbly obeying traffic laws! “Surely the mind-boggling order evident in the universe helps us to see that Jehovah, who “skillfully made the heavens” and the earth, deserves our praise, loyalty, and worship. Especially when we can give credit to a maker of a watch.
MOZ
2017-01-08 08:15:25 UTC
EVIDENCE is verifiable. You cannot VERIFY the existence of ANY god. Not PERCEPTION, not BELIEF, not FAITH, VERIFIABLE proof.



What you term "evidence" is NOT verifiable. You lie, because there is NO evidence of ANY god. Christian or otherwise. With or without a bible.
Nowpower
2017-01-07 21:32:58 UTC
I know that feeling. No use in denying it. Don't hide from it. Look at it. Investigate. Feelings are in large part unreliable it's true, but you must investigate. It may be there's something true prompting the feeling that's never been viewed without fear clouding the perception. Take the journey.
2017-01-08 10:28:37 UTC
Without the Bible? There is no knowledge without the Bible. the Bible confirms the Bible is true. Therefor it is true.
KUSHAL
2017-01-10 01:09:53 UTC
There is no physical hard evidence of God which is not found in religious items, but there is no way everything happens by coincidence, and nothing ever really happens by accident.
2017-01-08 11:00:23 UTC
Did you know that in the quraan, things that were discovored 'recently', was actually discovered 1400 yeasr ago when god gave the quraan to prophet muhammad.
2017-01-07 21:47:30 UTC
You don't see the creation? Humankind? Complexity of the human body? The universe? Sun? get some glasses bro
Lynn
2017-01-07 15:15:58 UTC
FAITH is what God requires. If he showed himself like so many want him to do it would be no need for faith. For certain every person will see death and it is then we will have the evidence we seek whether he exist or not.
Sandra K
2017-01-07 21:38:41 UTC
There really is no evidence, Bible fiction isn't real evidence.
Michael
2017-01-08 00:20:47 UTC
The evidence of God in my life is that I am alive. I have had three (THREE!) near-death miracles.

1.) Fell asleep at the wheel and destroyed my car and I walked away from it with only a few bruises

2.) Was stung by two yellowjackets, went into anaphylactic shock, had an awesome, mind-blowing time in the gates of Hell (it's real)

3.) Was overdosed on nitroglycerin in the hospital when I didn't even have a heart problem!



You want to know the funny thing? After going through these three miracles, I still didn't want anything to do with God. It was only when I had a nervous breakdown and ended up in the psych ward that I finally hit rock bottom and sought God. Now, I'm walking with Him daily through my Savior Jesus Christ and I am alive and well.
?
2017-01-08 12:54:16 UTC
why would there be evidence of God? It's called being spiritual, you aren't going to find any evidence
Naguru
2017-01-08 02:45:20 UTC
Please wait. Have patience. I will go the Central Library and inquire from my wise friend to collect and compile all the relevant data, input and other solid information about your question and give a combined and convincing answer. Haste makes waste. In the meantime, please do not jump into any hasty or wrong conclusions.



It is a good question ? of today, which I appreciate.
G C
2017-01-07 06:46:17 UTC
Objective science validates the Bible soundly and rejects evolution. It is too simple for some people.
?
2017-01-07 16:20:03 UTC
yeah... evidence of god without using bible... entire universe is evidence of all powerful being... law, order, specificity, existence and sustaining of celestial bodies, water cycle, moon cycle, location, location location, (is that a word), planet earth perfect to support terrestrial life, universal laws and fidelity to them, all this points to powerful and intelligent source...
?
2017-01-08 18:12:47 UTC
Nothing is made by itself. Everything has a maker. A house was not made by itself.



We humans did not make ourselves either nor did we came into existence because of our own will. We exist because it was God's will.
zack
2017-01-08 15:10:47 UTC
Intuition
Olive Garden
2017-01-07 15:57:37 UTC
Study of ancient fathers, pre and post apostolic fathers. The scientific analysis of the Shroud of Turin.
Michael
2017-01-09 03:02:05 UTC
Just look at the wonders of nature, trees, flowers and the diverse animal life and tell me it arrived from evolution. It is amazing the most destructive animal on the planet, man, is hell bent trying to destroy everything on and in it!!
?
2017-01-08 16:17:03 UTC
Proof of God..



God exists! You're not a piece of space dust evolved over billions of accidents, but a specially created being, and you are loved by your Creator.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3J2mtlpjJ0&feature=youtu.be
2017-01-07 10:01:28 UTC
Me Bombed for 5 years By the nazis me praying i would Survive today over 80 enough proof for me My God Loves me he Proved it
myant
2017-01-07 19:01:41 UTC
i will not use the bible for evidence of God... YOU read the new testament and see if God will not reveal Himself to you...then maybe we can talk...
Gomakawitnessofjesus
2017-01-07 19:31:43 UTC
the testimony of prophets are reserved in the bible. to a believer the testimony is the bible preaching to us. there is a book of Mormon, and modern revelations and living prophets. if one cannot receive the bible, than one has to rely on the testimony of men. and it is written, trust no one ! unless you know they are men of God.
Trilobiteme
2017-01-08 20:43:43 UTC
Crucifixion darkness on passover 33 AD when the moon was full Jesus Christ is Lord
Amu
2017-01-08 06:13:57 UTC
yes, there is a God. Without any scripture it is understandable that there is a God. We have to think deeply.
2017-01-07 21:59:08 UTC
IF, as you say, you're an atheist, why are you so desperate in trying to be persuaded in something you don't believe in? IF, as you say, you ARE an atheist, why do you even care what others believe in or don't believe in? Aren't you an "atheist," after all?
2017-01-08 07:34:08 UTC
You are asking to prove God's existence...........but the Bible is HIS TRUTHS........

Why argue why not try to find GOD yourself and quit trying to prove otherwise.........you are in a losing battle.
2017-01-08 06:07:53 UTC
bible is fake news





koran is fake news.



god is fake news.





Real gods are found in star wars/ star trek /harry potter /lord of the rings
2017-01-08 03:42:15 UTC
I will use the tree the fan to,

the Lord talks to me from the trees I walk by

the Lord Jesus Christ talks to me from my fan in my room.

Jesus Christ only does what he sees his Father God do.

God bless you in Jesus name Amen

add a blessing to the reading doing hearing of his word

in Jesus Amen.
?
2017-01-07 13:08:13 UTC
Evidence of our God, whose name is Jehovah, is all around us.
2017-03-18 01:23:23 UTC
there's loads apart from the bible, of course.........

look for any written record of a testimony of experiencing god over the last 2,000 years, or any testimony from someone you know... there are undoubtedly thousands of such...





i add that it's not really reasonable to exclude the bible...

consider hannibal of carthage who invaded rome... his burial place is unknown - no body... no image of him is known to exist... no architectural work (e...g... a monument) built by him is known, no work of literature, etc...

until recently, the only evidence we had of his existence was recorded testimony (and still that is the only really good evidence we have, the only evidence that mentions his name and describes his activities... the recently-discovered evidence, though quite solid, is both circumstantial and only tangentially related to hannibal personally...)...



now: imagine some committee in the distant past - say, the 4th century c...e... - examines all of the contemporary and near-contemporary accounts of hannibal, collects those believed to be authentic and/or reliable, translates them into a single language and combines them into a single book called "the big book of hannibal"...



then 1,600 years later someone asks you,

"do you have any evidence of hannibal without using the big book of hannibal?"



the bible is *in a sense* the collection of all of the believed-to-be-authentic accounts of the biblical god (believed at the end of the 4th century)... (note that i say "in a sense" 'cause the bible uses a higher bar, not just written accounts of god but documents believed to be inspired by god...)



isn't it kind of silly - no matter what the situation - to ask, "apart from this collection of all of the proper, most well-authenticated evidence for x, what evidence do you have for x?"
2017-03-10 03:38:48 UTC
there are thousands of gods outside of the bible; all of which have equal claim as true deities, and the experience of "god" is open to all but it's a personal experience not an affirmation of theology... all religions are false - they arise when the experience of feeling the ineffable is crammed into man-made dogma; it's just politics... yet the ineffable remains - accessible to all through personal experience - writing about it can never quite capture it, it's not god, in the sense of a creator - that concept is false - but it can be seen as something like salvation as it can lead to personal harmony and true cooperation with others... too often religious experiences reinforce only divisiveness and hate - they've got god all wrong!
2017-02-27 10:11:22 UTC
if you mean proof, type proof...



god once overwhelmed me with his love and forgiveness...



god certainly did not create the earth in six days...



is there any logical or scientific evidence that proves that atheism is right? no... logic, reason, and science do not lead to atheism, 'cause there's no way to know that there's no god, much less prove it...



so why the double standard when it comes to evidence, pard?



the testimony of honest men and women concerning their own experiences is indispensable in court... well, why isn't it good enough for you?
jon pike
2017-01-07 19:10:27 UTC
Hugo, no one is trying to convince you of anything. We know what we know, and we have a God to thank for giving us the knowledge and understanding of his Word Jesus.
Steve S
2017-01-07 21:51:34 UTC
Common sense.
?
2017-01-09 11:28:48 UTC
Sex. Never had a great orgasm without saying," oh God that was great". Kinda kicks the sh*t out of yelling,"Hawkins", or "Wal Mart" or any other thing you believe in.
2017-01-07 23:06:48 UTC
Your own existence is evidence of Allah
2017-01-07 11:56:35 UTC
i used to be buddhist, now christian.

even then, i knew that a God is behind everything.

tis why i asked God who He is so i can worship Him and know Him.

God answered ... i hv been a christian for 32+ years .Amen.



i owe you NOTHING.

i am not in a court of law that you imagine in your stupid mind.

i don't need to prove God to a nuthead ...

whats your IQ ... please , tell us.
2017-01-07 06:16:12 UTC
Hi...A moment...



An important question for you.



https://youtu.be/eQVm8RokoBA





https://youtu.be/Er9D00DXQQs





https://youtu.be/nGy0eslF9m8



Then look up 200proofs of flat earth.

Enjoy the journey, look, see, assess.



Ppl don't study, read, learn, then they tell us they Know everything, they Know this and that. They don't.
Chantal G
2017-01-07 15:36:34 UTC
God is love. If love exists, then God exists.



A = B. If B, then A.
manish
2017-01-09 14:00:00 UTC
God is always in our heart
?
2017-01-07 14:30:59 UTC
World around you.
2017-01-08 01:56:11 UTC
Stuart Chase: “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”
numlock
2017-01-08 12:27:54 UTC
religious folks have no interest in evidence.....they are attracted to whatever pile of lies most easily fits into their life...
Anonymous
2017-01-08 22:16:08 UTC
Everyone has a right to believe whatever foolishness they choose to believe.
2017-01-09 01:05:06 UTC
Read Plato, Philo, or any thinker B.C.
2017-01-08 02:40:56 UTC
Simply put, I have faith there is no god.



No other proof is required.
Darrell
2017-01-08 19:52:38 UTC
Everywhere
Lucifer
2017-01-08 03:59:21 UTC
None with or without.
JohnnyBravo
2017-01-08 01:54:02 UTC
God is the reason it burns when I pee
2017-01-07 05:28:35 UTC
Not yet. They claim it because (insert fallacy here), but have never shown valid evidence from anywhere. It is all talk.
2017-01-07 06:08:20 UTC
what are you doing with your knowledge of Jesus Christ? Accepting Him for salvation or rejecting Him for eternal damnation?
2017-01-07 12:29:26 UTC
Christians arguments, as you can see here, involves blind faith, logical fallacies, blind faith, illogical conclusions, blind faith, disproved statements, blind faith, unsubstantiated claims, blind faith, Youtube videos, blind faith, ambiguous and unverified scripture that's been heavily falsified, blind faith, ignorance of science, blind faith, http://www.quranandscience.com/ (stop laughing at the back), blind faith, bad maths that has nothing to do with evolution, blind faith, and an ignorance of their own history.
?
2017-01-07 13:44:10 UTC
Thinking is not strong with them my padawan.
?
2017-01-09 11:13:03 UTC
Such can only be found from within.
2017-01-07 19:17:35 UTC
NO THAT IS NOT ALL WE SAY....THE WORLD ITSELF IS PROOF ALONG WITH MILLIONS OF BORN AGAINS!!
Steel Rain
2017-01-09 11:53:12 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlBk2UMi-I
Sara
2017-01-07 05:32:04 UTC
There isn't any.
Alana
2017-01-08 17:52:52 UTC
So
Brian
2017-01-08 18:06:58 UTC
breathing.
2017-01-08 21:17:56 UTC
no


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...