Jehovah's Witnesses: What is your understanding of the following verses?

Question

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10

I know that JWs do not believe in the immortality of the soul. You don't believe anyone goes to heaven or hell immediately after death, and also don't believe the unsaved suffer in hell for eternity, but are destroyed & punished with eternal death instead. After studying these topics I feel that I have, for the most part, come to the conclusion that your views are correct. The Bible says that the dead are conscious of nothing. The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, not a real event. There wouldn't really be a point of a resurrection if everyone was already judged and sent to their eternal destination. The Bible says the wages of sin is death, and constantly uses the words "destroy" and "destruction" when talking about the wicked. The "eternal fire" of Sodom and Gomorrah eventually did go out, so the flames weren't eternal, it was the effects of the fire since the cities were destroyed. The lake of fire is said to be the second death.

However, those are the three verses that are still stumping me a bit. What is your understanding of them? Other than 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, I see NOTHING in the Bible that implies that man has an immortal soul- and it does say ONLY God is immortal, and also that He can *destroy* both soul and body in hell. But that verse does talk about being "away from the body" as if it's a good thing. And again, Revelation does say the lake of fire is the second death, but then there are those two verses which make it confusing. I do realize that 20:10 isn't even necessarily talking about mankind in general, but a specific class (the devil, beast, and false prophet) but don't you believe that Satan is also going to be destroyed, not tortured forever? And then the other verse talks about them having "no rest day or night" which makes it sound like a bad conscious experience. So I am just wondering how you view these verses.

Answer 1

Question: What is your understanding of the following verses?



Scripture: 2 Corinthians 5:6-8



The apostle Paul, in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, is writing concerning the pilgrimage of the believer, especially the joint-heirs with Christ, during the present evil system. In verses 6 and 7 we read:



“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home [Strong's Greek No. 1736, to be in one's own country] in the body, we are absent [Strong's 1553, to emigrate, i.e., (fig.) vacate or quit] from Jehovah, for we walk by faith, not by sight.”



As long as the believers and joint-heirs feel “at home” in our present surroundings, we are not walking with Jehovah, therefore are absent from him. If we are finding that our home is dwelling with God, or if we *not* making our home in our present body, we are striving to make ourselves acceptable to Jehovah God.



So, it does not appear to be contrasting this present life with the resurrected life beyond the grave, but rather, from the the context, it appears that it is speaking of two conditions that are possible for the Christian right here in this life:



1) A condition of nearness to the Lord, through faithfulness in doing his will.

2) Alienation from him through unfaithfulness in heeding his words of instruction.



Thus we see that 2 Corinthians 5:8 says nothing about what happens to the believer at death.



Scriptures: Revelation 14:11, 20:10



Basanizō or basanismos.



Both words mean torture however the root word for both is touch-stone.



A touchstone is defined as: 1. A fine-grained dark stone formerly used to test the fines of gold and silver by the color of the streak made on the stone. 2. A criterion or standard by which the qualities of something are tested.



So, it is actually a process that tests purity. For example in 2 Peter 2:8 it says:



"For that...righteous...man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed {basanizō) [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds"



Lot, even though he is called “righteous,” receives the same “torment” (basanizō) that those in the “lake of fire” receive. Of course, Lot’s righteous soul is only being tested, and is not receiving eternal conscious torment.

Answer 2

You can’t separate the soul from the body because, as described in Genesis, The soul is the body. Adam became a living soul. The flesh is the barrier between a living being and a spiritual being. When Jesus Christ died he opened the way for the chosen to live in heaven. Matthew 27:51 :” And, look! the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom,” Since the body represents the person it would have to change. Philippians 3:20-21 “As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself.”



Revelation 14:9-11 speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.” Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—that continues forever, not the fiery torment.



Revelation 20:10-15 says that in “the lake of fire and sulphur, . . . they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” At first reading, this might sound like proof of eternal conscious torment by fire, but it definitely is not. Why? Among other reasons, “the wild beast and the false prophet” and “death and Hades” will end up in what is here called “the lake of fire.” As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Why? Because “the lake of fire” means “extinction and total oblivion.” This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14.

Answer 3

The book of Revelation is a book full of symbols and Rev. 14:10, 11 and Revelation 20:10 is full of figurative (not literal) language. So when the rest of the Bible clearly shows how when someone dies, they are not conscious of anything (Ps. 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that the condition of the dead is one of inactivity - likened to a deep sleep (Ps. 13:3; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:13), it would seem reasonable to conclude that what was written at Rev. 14:10, 11 is indeed phrased in figurative or symbolic terms.



Revelation provides a number of instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context. - Rev. 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.



There is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not portray the sense of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.”



Also, it is important to note that it is the SMOKE that ascends forever...NOT the "torment".



You may appreciate the information found at the following:



Rev. 14:10,11 - How will the smoke of the torment of the worshipper of the wild beast and it's image ascend forever and ever?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/message/4524



Torment / Ba·sa·ni´zo

http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/2010/12/torment-basanizo.html



The Biblical Hell

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/hell.htm

Answer 4

If immortality of the soul is correct ....then evil people have a prize....inmortality...then Evil will always exist...cause they can't be destroyed......Even God....then maybe God is not almighty...cause he can't destroy the soul of evil people.



Or maybe he is a sadist...he can destroy them...but rather he prefer to torture them.....Or he is not almighty....or he is a sadist.....Which do you think??



JWs accept that Revelation 14:3 says that 144,000 are redeem or boight from the earth.....so that means they are no longer in the earth.



Revelation 14:3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.



the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth....then we accept that amount....we don't Question the bible.



The lake of fire is the second death....that is a representation of God 's power in destruction's mode.....When God is his power to destroy.....the effect is permanent.



Deutoronomy 4:24  For Jehovah your God is a consuming fire, a God exacting exclusive devotion.



Jehovah your God is a consuming fire...So when he uses his power to destroy someone or something....he consumes it....no longer exists.



Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



the beast and the false prophet are not literal but a figurative things...the beast represents all humans goverments...How a goverment can suffer if is not a person but an arrangment done by humans ofhow they will be ruled?



In what sense are those in “the lake of fire” tormented eternally? At times, “to torment” can mean “to restrain” someone. Once when Jesus confronted the demons, they cried out: “Art thou come hither to torment us [restrain us in the abyss] before the time?” (Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:30, 31; KJ) So all of those in “the lake” will suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint, or “the second death.”

Answer 5

one million. No. Not if you're instructing, what the Bible fairly teaches. two. Again, No. The Bible is really transparent as to Jesus' identification and his beginning. Jesus used to be despatched BY God Almighty. In the booklet of John, 176 occasions Jesus refers to himself and his God and Father as 2 (two) seperate and precise contributors. Jesus used to be the first production of Jehovah. The Bible could be very transparent in this. Jesus lived for an untold period of time together with his God and Father in heaven. Learning from Him. Before he agreed to return to Earth "take a slaves type." After his project used to be completed, Jehovah resurrected Jesus, in which he in a while back to heaven.

Answer 6

the problem is that the bible specifies 3 doors. there are clear references to annihilation, which the jws picked up on, but there are also equally clear references speaking of a lake of fire that christians see. so everyone tries to force all the scriptures into one or the other molds.



in the parable of the net, jesus talks about bad fish which are thrown away, bad fish which are burnt, and good fish which are kept.

there are 2 words translated "bad". one is sapros, which is bad in the sense of rotten, dead, diseased, ie, it's gone off. these are thrown away.

the other is ponerous, which is bad in the sense of evil, malicious, malevolent, ie born bad. these are thrown into the fire.



thus there are 3 destinations.

jws preach about one to the exclusion of the other. and scriptures which identify the other are "spiritualised away" as they do with all problem passages.



yet accepting all 3 harmonizes all the scriptures which refer to "hell". obviously, if hell is just the grave, then plucking out an offending eye will not save you from dying and going to the grave. or else there'd be a lot of one eyed immortals running around.





Is 66:24-Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.



Dan 12:2-And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt.



Matt 3:12-"And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."



Matt 8:11-12-"And I say to you, that many shall come from east and west, and recline [at the] table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



Matt 8:29-And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, "What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment [Gr. to torture] us before the time?"



Matt 13:42-"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place [Gr. there] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



Matt 13:49-50-"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



Matt 18:8-"it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire."



Matt 22:13-"Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



Matt 25:46-"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



Mark 5:7-and crying out with a loud voice, he [demons] said, "What do I have to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"



Mark 9:43-"it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell [Gr. gehenna], into the unquenchable fire"



Luke 3:17-"but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."



Luke 10:12-"I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city."



Luke 12:5-"fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell [Gr. gehenna]"



Heb 10:27-29-a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot...



Rev 14:9-11-If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have NO REST day and night



Rev 19:20-these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire



Rev 20:10-And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [Gr. they will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages]



Rev 22:14-15-the city...outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and...