LDS, if Joseph Smith had the seer stones why would he need the gold plates?

Question

I've been reading about Joseph Smith, and how he translated much of the Book of Mormon with the seer stones. Why would he need the gold plates if he was just going to be looking inside of a hat at stones, anyway?

It's just been kind of worrying me, because I've been thinking about how the seer stones were used for magic. What would this be, then? Why would he be using seer stones and not even hardly looking at the plates?

Thank you for your answers!

Answer 1

Do not confuse the Urim and Thummim which were buried by Moroni along with the plates for their translation process, with the seer stone Joseph possessed separately. In the introductory pages to the Book of Mormon, you can review Joseph Smith's detailed testimony, which includes a description of the Urim and Thummim as being two stones (I recall other descriptions refer to them as being transparent) set in silver bows. Bible and other scriptural references regarding the Urim and Thummim include:



http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng&letter=u



http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng&letter=u



Particularly in Numbers 27:21, 1 Samuel 28:6 (where God would not reveal anything to Saul by the Urim and Thummim because Saul was not worthy), and Ezra 2:61-63 (where those who said they were of the Tribe of Levi and thus eligible to hold priesthood office could not prove it, and only revelation from God through the Urim and Thummim could establish their claim), we see the Urim and Thummim formed an instrument through which God could reveal things to His seers, or prophets. As the link to the Bible Dictionary notes, the Hebrew meaning of "Urim and Thummim" is "Lights and Perfections."



The Urim and Thummim worked in the light. Joseph typically translated from the plates using the Urim and Thummim in an open room with only a curtain between him and his scribe so his scribe would not see the plates until the Three and Eight Witnesses were to view and physically examine them after the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, reported Joseph placed the Urim and Thummim in her hands just after he received them; she did not see the plates, but God thus allowed her to be a witness of the Urim and Thummim, as also were witnesses who did see the plates. As to part of your question, the plates were the reason for the need to translate, and the Urim and Thummim rather than the seer stone was provided for that process. It was a set; to begin, you really needed the plates in front of you and to be using the Urim and Thummim to translate them in order to fulfill the original purposes of both the Nephite record and the Urim and Thummim. If Joseph had made the whole thing up, he would have said he only needed a seer stone to reveal the past, and the marvelous story of the Book of Mormon would not have needed plates, Moroni, the Urim and Thummim, or anything else physical. Joseph would also not have needed witnesses of those things to make his claims, but God's law required witnesses to testify of all these, and of all that Joseph did regarding the plates. The entire Book of Mormon story carries the mark of God's work, not Joseph's alone.



The seer stone was not exactly like the Urim and Thummim, though it could be used similarly, it seems. If something was in a hat, needing to be out of direct light, it was probably the seer stone. If it was ever used in translation of the plates in absence from the plates, it was a minimal occurrence. It has been said that Joseph eventually learned and was able to understand and translate the language of the plates directly from them while no longer using the Urim and Thummim; he may not have received very much formal education, but everything about him shows him to be extremely intelligent, which degree of intelligence could only have come from the Spirit of God. Other than Jesus Christ, who far exceeds all, and maybe Solomon for wisdom, I fail to find anyone else like Joseph in world history. The volumes of scripture he brought forth, his ability to expound the gospel of Jesus Christ, and his extraordinary teachings and actions, all well documented in the detailed history of the Church, show him to be positively amazing. Anyway, both the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone worked by faith, thus aiding Joseph in receiving revelations from God. Of the two, the Urim and Thummim was more specifically a revelatory instrument given from God, and an ancient one at that. The seer stone, I feel, is more like a footnote in Joseph's history.

Answer 2

Without the gold plates, what would he have needed to translate?



I don't know exactly how it worked, because obviously I've never had to translate things by the power of God. I do know, however, that the seer stones were merely tools given to Joseph Smith to make the translations easier. Could he have translated the record without them? I'm sure he could have, because God doesn't have limits, and neither do those He's called. Still, if things can be made easier, why not?



Nephihah--I think it was Nephihah--gave a very good answer to this very question once, though. He pointed out that some people--myself included--have cell phones which can't be read easily in direct sunlight. We think nothing of cupping our hands over the screen to block the light. Why, then, would it be any different with other tools? Joseph Smith also used a curtain at times, so obviously the hat wasn't important at all. It was probably just something he used to help his eyes or keep himself focused. It's not like the seer stones were just random pebbles he shoved into some random hat, after all.



And we do encourage questions. Of course we do, because how else can we learn? Still, put this in perspective. Prophets have raised the dead, parted the seas...and one even talked to a spontaneously combusting bush and was told to free a nation. The translation of the Book of Mormon was absolutely huge, no argument, but compared to some of the other things prophets have done, this one seems fairly easy. I don't really understand why it's so simple for people to accept those other things but so difficult to understand how a man called of God and given tools created by God for this very purpose can't do something as relatively easy as translating a dead language. If God can create this entire world and us, why couldn't He help Joseph do something like this? And if the methods seem strange, isn't that only because we wouldn't have the first clue on how to do something similar ourselves? Fixing a car's engine seems impossible to me, but it obviously isn't to someone who knows what they're doing. Why is this any different?

Answer 3

Item 1: The gold plates were the source he was translating from. He was looking at them- the seer stones were tools to translate with. You can't make a table with only a saw- you need wood to work with. In the same principle, Joseph couldn't have translated the Book of Mormon if he didn't have the book. How could he have translated if he didn't look at the material to be translated? Apply some logic.



Item 2: The hat thing is not confirmed- we don't know exactly how the Urim and Thummim were used to translate the Book of Mormon since he was behind a curtain during translation. He may or may not have looked into a hat- even so, who cares? There have been much weirder things happening in the world.

Answer 4

I've never heard that he kept them in a hat. Not in church anyway. Doesn't seem like a good place to keep a set of glasses you are using to translate a book.



Why would he need the gold plates instead of just the seer stones? Why would he need the book at all if Moroni appeared to him? Maybe Moroni could have just appeared and dictated the book to him. Or appeared to Oliver Cowdery and dictated it to him he was the one writing it down?



I don't know the answer to these questions. The church encourages investigation but when you start worrying about little technicalities like whether Adam had a belly button then you're looking for answers that may not exist or at least aren't really relevant. The gospel is about following Jesus Christ and following his example. So I'd be happy to investigate but I'm not going to put off faith and repentance and living a Christlike life until I find the answer.



You are right to be concerned about rocks being used for magic. The devil likes to copy the Lord. When Moses turned his staff into a snake the priests of pharaoh did the same thing. There is a section in the Doctrine and Covenants in which a member of the church was receiving revelations from a rock he had and it was confusing church members. In that chapter Joseph Smith was told to take him aside and explain to him that those revelations were not of God and there is a thorough discussion of how to tell the difference.

Answer 5

Think of the seer stones as a language translator that uses the power of God to translate this unknown language. Joseph Smith used them to translate the plates. I believe there was a time when he didn't even need them any more, he had gotten so used to the language, he could translate without the help of the seer stones.



It wasn't magic. Moses parting the Red Sea wasn't magic, Christ's miracles weren't magic, so why can't this other miracle not be magic?

Answer 6

To an atheist, all supernatural events are "magic". To a Christian, the difference is whether or not it comes from God. Certainly the Bible and Book of Mormon are filled with things that could be considered "magic" or supernatural in origin. The children of Israel looked to the brazen serpent in order to be healed from the bite of poisonous snakes. The brazen serpent was a fixture in Solomon's Temple, until people started worshipping it. The Ark of the Covenant was used to communicate with God, much like the Liahona or Urim and Thumim. It was just a box covered in gold. Inside the Ark of the Covenant was the rod of Aaron, which budded after being long dead. Moses also had a rod, which he used to bring forth water from the desert rock. Joshua held a rod high in the air, so that Israel could win a battle. After Judas died, the apostles threw the equivalent of ancient dice to determine the will of the Lord, to decide who to call to fill the vacancy. They believed that God could communicate through such random events. The Liahona was probably named after similar words in Hebrew, which indicate "the wither of the Lord", an appropriate name for an object that communicates the will of God.



It can be argued that Joseph Smith had the power to translate the Book of Mormon without actually seeing it, but it can also be argued that he might not have had the faith. Carrying a 70 pound gold book around certainly would add to his faith, and give him absolute knowledge of the reality of the thing. The other witnesses wouldn't have been much impressed, without seeing the actual book. I guess there is only so much that a person can be expected to take on faith. Even Martin Harris mentioned, when questioned about his testimony, how he held the Book of Mormon once while Joseph prepared a hiding place. That is how he knew it wasn't purely supernatural, or a trick of the mind. It was tangible, and he could not deny it.

Answer 7

The seer stones where to translate the BoM, I guess they gave off a bit of light, so it was best to have a dimmer area to see. The hat thing, from what I know, wasn't regular, he probably only used it a few times, but it gets emphasized a lot because of how stupid it sounds.



Of course, the only person outside the lds group to ever see a copy of the "untranslated" words, was an expert (for the time) on languages and he said it was just a collection of Hebrew, Egyptian, and other languages thrown together.

Answer 8

"Did any other prophet in the bible need a tranlation device???"

That statement is so far off it's not even funny. 1st, the prophets of the Bible didn't need to translate because they were writing the scriptures themselves and they weren't writing in english. 2nd, it was Catholics that translated the ancient scriptures, with their own modifications which are the italic words, into what is now the Bible. The Catholics had some of the knowledge but didn't understand most of the scriptures which is where the italic words come in. They were added according to what the Catholics thought the scriptures meant, not what the scriptures actually meant. The Catholics, not people of God, translated by their limited knowledge while Joseph Smith translated the golden plates with the power of God.



@Ruprect The Urim and Thummim would not work unless they were in complete darkness.



Words from Joseph Smith's wife, Emma:

"When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made a mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling, although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. .?. . When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, "Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?" When I answered, "Yes," he replied, "Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived." He had such a limited knowledge of history at the time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls."



Joseph even knew without looking at his wife whenever Emma would spell a word wrong. At first it was Emma who was writing what Joseph would say but something happened that caused her to not be able to so Joseph needed a scribe. I'm pretty sure she had their baby and that's why she couldn't do it anymore. Joseph also didn't know every detail in the Bible, including if Jerusalem had walls or not. The walls being in the Bible isn't important, it's the fact that Joseph didn't know that and yet the Urim and Thummim showed him there were walls in Jerusalem.



More from Emma:

"Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, it is marvelous to me, “a marvel and a wonder,” as much so as to any one else."



Since Joseph Smith would have the Urim and Thummim in the hat the whole time how could he have possibly looked at the Bible like people claim?



Just like the witnesses of the Golden Plates, I will not deny my testimony that I know the Book of Mormon is true just as the Bible and I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church on the earth. The Holy Ghost has testified these truths to me and I will not call the Spirit of God a liar because the Spirit of God can never lie.



My best guess is so people would know the scriptures came from somewhere. Joseph couldn't read what was on the plates because he didn't know the language so the Urim and Thummim showed the words but in english.



Topanga, the church does encourage people to investigate.

Answer 9

Joseph Smith translating scriptures is an interesting thing to consider.



When he started he relied on a device, a heavenly machine of some kind, with a technology that is familiar to God, but was not familiar to people 200 years ago.



Imagine explaining how you can push a button on a black berry, or text capable cell phone, and you could talk to someone on the other side of the World, or text someone in Russia, even if you lived in Buenos Aries Argentina?



Could you imagine trying to explain that kind of thing to people back then?



Superstition they would shout? We both know this. It would quite literally blow their minds.



Joseph Smith, is often described as being not too smart. But that is not really true, I think. Just because someone does not have a lot of educational degrees that they have gained through years of schooling, does not mean that they are not smart.





A person with a high I.Q. has a high I.Q. regardless of how many days they spent in College or not.



It only took three months for Joseph Smith to Translate The Book Of Mormon.



Just the names in The Book Of Mormon alone are still being studied for their linguistic roots. All sorts of things are being studied about The Book Of Mormon, that are very interesting... even all these years later.



After a certain amount of time Joseph Smith had cracked the language Himself.



He did not need the seer devices supplied by God anymore, to help him translate an ancient language that was no longer used anymore. The Spanish conquistadors saw to it, that the Language of Central America was completely eradicated off the face of the Earth, and most of the Natives themselves were killed, sad to say.



Joseph Smith alone, had mastered a language in just a few short months, to the point that He did not need any sort of translation devices to assist him.



He did not need any additional help from any sort of seer machines, when it came to translating the Bible, both Old and New Testament.



In the case of the Bible, Joseph Smith, simply looked at it, then whenever something that was lost needed to be added, He added it.



So Joseph Smith was clearly growing over time as a Prophet. His abilities were increasing, perhaps exponentially, as time went on in His ministry.



Some people say that Joseph Smith did not finish translating the Bible, but anyone who looks at his Joseph Smith's Inspired Translation Of The Bible, can see as a self evident fact that he completed the New Testament. Also He completed Genesis, most if not all of Exodus, and went through many other parts and certified that it was mostly translated correctly.



Joseph Smith did all this, while under threats against his life, building a new Church, establishing cities, being in the middle of major religious conflicts. People getting shot, mobs rising, extermination orders were written.



It is amazing that He ever found any time at all to translate the Bible. But He did over the years. A little time here, a little time there. So therefor the Bible for the most part has been translated correctly, because Joseph Smith Himself saw to it that it was.

Answer 10

Exodus 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually. Leviticus 8:8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim. Deuteronomy 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Ezra 2:63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim. Nehemiah 7:65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim. Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. The white stone in Revelation is the Urim and Thummim. In fact, Revelation 2:17 is a prophecy of Joseph Smith and the golden plates. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone" In this case, the hidden manna is the golden plates. Joseph Smith told of his vision and overcame the negativity people gave him before he had gotten the golden plates or as Revelation puts it, received the hidden manna (the golden plates being the "manna" that was hidden). There's a prophecy fulfilled. Remember the golden plates being hidden and the Urim and Thummim being with them? The Urim and Thummim would be the white stone. "and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." In this case, the new name written would be the language of the golden plates. The only one that could translate, "which no man knowing saving he that receiveth it," the golden plates with the Urim and Thummim was Joseph Smith because he was the one that received them. The Urim and Thummim are called a white stone which is why Revelation 2 calls "them" an "it".

Answer 11

the plates contained the records to be translated.

the stones were simply a focal tool to assist JS in that.



you have to remember that this translation was not a translation done by the knowledge and education of JS --- it is one done solely by the power of God. so actually the use of a seer stone really is not that big of a deal. in short - we do not know the exact method of translation.

there are lots of opinions - but they are opinions given by people who never performed the translation process itself --- they can only know what they observed at the time. whether JS used the "original" urim and thummim or the seer stone or any other method is beside the point, and does not diminish the results. the BoM and its message stand on their own......irregardless of the details of the method of translation.



remember, there were witnesses to the plates - and God has said He will establish His words with two or more witnesses....the plates were necessary to do that, and to provide the record.



as to your concerns over the use of seer stones.....I hope you will read this. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones

JS and his followers undoubtedly believed in supernatural power (as does any who believe in God). AND, there may have been some ideas about how to access that power that now strike us as inaccurate and even strange. given almost two centuries and massive scientific advances which separate our culture from theirs - is that surprising? however, there is no evidence that those of the time period considered these things to be "magic" or "occult" nor did they consider "magic" or "occult" to be positive things. it is difficult to pass judgment on the thinking of a different culture....and we should be careful in doing so.

Answer 12

@Marvel M Emma Smith also wrote that Joseph never married another woman.. But we know that isn't true now don't we.

Answer 13

why did he need a hat to look at 'magic' seer stones? you mean God doesn't even have the technology of an amazon kindle?

Answer 14

Did any other prophet in the bible need a tranlation device???

NOPE!

The Urim and thummim in the bible are really a "yes" and "No" sticks they used back in the ark of the Covenant days to get an answer from God, how can you translate a Book of Mormon with a yes and no device???

Dear think about it, you cannot put the plates and the stones in a hat altogether...so this is impossible.



Most Christians think it wa sthe angel of light and Joseph Smith that brough the book forth, just liek it was Mohammad and the angel gabreil that brough the Quran forth...same/same.



LOOK DEAR IF JS HAD THE GIFT OF TONGUES THEIR WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THE URIM AND THUMMIN IN THE FIRTS PLACE!!! (that is the gift of tongues as Mormon translate the gift of tomgues as speaking another person language, he would be able to not only speak, but read their language and be able to translate it with no TOOL!

Answer 15

Topanga - 1

Mormonism - 0



Edit:

I'm not sure where you go the idea that Mormonism encourages investigation, but it's not true. "The thinking as been done," as they say when the LDS leaders speak.



"Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators' of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy. One cannot speak evil of the lord's annointed... and retain the holy spirit in his heart. This sort of game is Satan's favorite pastime, and he has practiced it to believing souls since Adam. He {Satan} wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking."



"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."



Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)



If you doubt what the LDS leadership says then you are being influenced by Satan. If information control bothers you then I think you should rethink your investigation of the LDS church.

Answer 16

Why would God let evil men steal the 116 pages?

Why would Moroni have to carry the plates across the country is they weren't used most of the time?

Why did Smith try to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada, as described in the D&C?

Why doesn't the Book of Mormon have anything in it about becoming gods, multiple levels of heaven, garments?

Answer 17

why would anyone believe in a lier..